Bernie or Edgar? Topic

burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 3:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 3:07:00 PM (view original):
He was more effective at the plate because he'd walk rather than make an out.   That's a good thing.     Pretending that there's nothing to be compared is borderline retarded.  That's my point.
It's really not comparable.  If a player got hit in the back 100 times, and batted .300, he's still a better hitter than the .250 guy, even if the .250 guy got more hits.  Does that make sense?
What if he reaches on an error?  

Much like getting hit in the back, he has very little control over reaching via error.    Same result but one counts as an AB, one does not.
Reach by error 100 times? I'm not following. What's your point exactly? (not trying to be a dick)
12/4/2013 3:17 PM
burnsy483
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EM walked a lot, which is a good thing.  His opportunity to get the hits is hurt because of that.  It doesn't mean he's not a better hitter than Bernie.  He's more likely to get a hit if you throw strikes to him, because he's a better hitter.
12/4/2013 3:18 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 3:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 3:07:00 PM (view original):
He was more effective at the plate because he'd walk rather than make an out.   That's a good thing.     Pretending that there's nothing to be compared is borderline retarded.  That's my point.
It's really not comparable.  If a player got hit in the back 100 times, and batted .300, he's still a better hitter than the .250 guy, even if the .250 guy got more hits.  Does that make sense?
What if he reaches on an error?  

Much like getting hit in the back, he has very little control over reaching via error.    Same result but one counts as an AB, one does not.
Reach by error 100 times? I'm not following. What's your point exactly? (not trying to be a dick)

Do you think players get hit in the back 100 times?  (trying to be a dick).

500 PA
200 hits
100 HBP
.500 BA

500 PA
200 hits
100 reach via error
.400 BA

Who's the better hitter?

12/4/2013 3:21 PM
burnsy483
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You don't have to try.

Assuming all else is equal, the first guy is the better hitter.
12/4/2013 3:22 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 3:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 3:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."
I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.
Why would that be fucktarded?
Even your beloved "WAR, ************!!!!" ***** all over Rick Monday in comparison to Bernie Williams.

Please explain why that is?
So you'll accept WAR when it backs up your argument?

I haven't looked but I'm guessing it has to do with the lengths of their careers. WAR is cumulative and OPS+ is a rate stat.
No, I'm not using WAR to back up my argument.

I'm asking you why your beloved WAR does not back up yours?

Since you started this with OPS+, a purely offensive statistic, by equating Monday's career 125 OPS+ and Williams' career OPS+ and concluding they had the same offensive value throughout their career, let's just stick with oWAR.

Monday's BEST season oWAR was 5.1,  His second best was 4.2 (many times).  Williams matched or exceeded 5.1 oWAR 8 times.

Why does one stat say they're the same, and the other say quite conclusively, they're not?

12/4/2013 3:26 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 3:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 3:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 3:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."
I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.
Why would that be fucktarded?
Even your beloved "WAR, ************!!!!" ***** all over Rick Monday in comparison to Bernie Williams.

Please explain why that is?
So you'll accept WAR when it backs up your argument?

I haven't looked but I'm guessing it has to do with the lengths of their careers. WAR is cumulative and OPS+ is a rate stat.
No, I'm not using WAR to back up my argument.

I'm asking you why your beloved WAR does not back up yours?

Since you started this with OPS+, a purely offensive statistic, by equating Monday's career 125 OPS+ and Williams' career OPS+ and concluding they had the same offensive value throughout their career, let's just stick with oWAR.

Monday's BEST season oWAR was 5.1,  His second best was 4.2 (many times).  Williams matched or exceeded 5.1 oWAR 8 times.

Why does one stat say they're the same, and the other say quite conclusively, they're not?

Do you not understand the difference between a rate stat and a cumulative stat?

A player could have only 100 PA and have a high OPS+ and a low WAR.

I'm on my phone so I don't have Monday's stats readily available, but I wouldn't be surprised if BW had a few thousand more PA.
12/4/2013 3:36 PM
burnsy483
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Bernie's oWAR was 38% higher than Monday's (according to BBref) But Bernie also had 26% more PAs.  Explains a lot of it.
12/4/2013 3:47 PM
tecwrg
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We're talking about BL's comparison of Bernie Williams career 125 OPS+ to Rick Monday's career 125 OPS+ to imply that they had the same career offensive value.

oWAR (both career, and seasonal) says otherwise.

I'm asking BL to explain why.

If his "excuse" is that it's because Williams had a few thousand more PA's, then isn't it misleading/retarded to say "Look, they had the same career OPS+"?

12/4/2013 3:54 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
We're talking about BL's comparison of Bernie Williams career 125 OPS+ to Rick Monday's career 125 OPS+ to imply that they had the same career offensive value.

oWAR (both career, and seasonal) says otherwise.

I'm asking BL to explain why.

If his "excuse" is that it's because Williams had a few thousand more PA's, then isn't it misleading/retarded to say "Look, they had the same career OPS+"?

I never said Williams and Monday had the same offensive value. I was providing context for Williams' (and Martinez's) OPS+.
12/4/2013 4:01 PM
bad_luck
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Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'. But Williams was able to do it longer so he had more offensive value.

But, it's worth noting that Monday's career WAR is closer to Williams' than Williams is to Martinez.
12/4/2013 4:04 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 3:22:00 PM (view original):
You don't have to try.

Assuming all else is equal, the first guy is the better hitter.
Because the act he had little control over didn't cost him an AB?

That's retarded.   And you know it is.
12/4/2013 4:09 PM
burnsy483
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One could argue that with more playing time to "catch up" to Bernie, Monday's OPS+ would have been lower.  That would be fair, but I don't know if it would be a significant difference.

Yes, Bernie had a better career with the bat with the extra PAs.  But I don't know if that makes him "better."  As in, Joey Votto has yet to have a better career with the bat as Bernie, but he's certainly a better hitter than Bernie.  (despite the fact that they have the exact same amount of hits per 162 games)
12/4/2013 4:13 PM
dahsdebater
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No, I'm pretty sure you just underthought the problem.  Do the math.  The first guy is obviously a better hitter.  He's a .500 hitter who never walks, so of those 100 HBP, the odds are 50 of them would have been hits, 50 outs.  The dude that had 100 errors made against him hit into 100 outs and got lucky.  Seems pretty clear who had a better season with the stick.
12/4/2013 4:14 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 4:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 3:22:00 PM (view original):
You don't have to try.

Assuming all else is equal, the first guy is the better hitter.
Because the act he had little control over didn't cost him an AB?

That's retarded.   And you know it is.
Huh? 

One guy is a .500 hitter.  The other is a .400 hitter.  The .500 hitter is a better hitter.  The .400 hitter is lucky to get on base because the defensive sucked on 100 balls he put in play that should have been outs.  Unless I'm missing something.  
12/4/2013 4:15 PM
MikeT23
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You probably underthought the problem.  How many .500 hitters have there been in MLB?   How many .400 hitters?   Which one is more likely to regress with more opportunities?  Which one is more likely to maintain/improve with more opportunities?

Truth is, we have no idea how either would have done given more chances.   Much like saying EM would have more hits if he didn't walk the extra time every 8 games.   He may have.   Or maybe not.   Either way, his OBP would come down because you can't top 1.000.
12/4/2013 4:19 PM
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