2015 baseball HOF ballot. Topic

tecwrg
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Posted by toddcommish on 2/11/2014 3:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
OK, I think I get it.

Badluck thinks Edgar is an elite hitter, and belongs in the HOF
MikeT thinks Edgar should've taken fewer walks because Russ Davis sucked, and Edgar doesn't belong in the HOF
Tec hates Puerto Ricans and think Edgar should've taken fewer walks because he thinks the Mariners hit .105
Tec hates Puerto Ricans and think Edgar should've taken fewer walks because he thinks the Mariners hit .105

I don't think I said any of those things.
2/11/2014 3:13 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.
2/11/2014 3:14 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by toddcommish on 2/11/2014 3:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
OK, I think I get it.

Badluck thinks Edgar is an elite hitter, and belongs in the HOF
MikeT thinks Edgar should've taken fewer walks because Russ Davis sucked, and Edgar doesn't belong in the HOF
Tec hates Puerto Ricans and think Edgar should've taken fewer walks because he thinks the Mariners hit .105
I don't really care about the walks.   The players who hit behind him weren't very adept at driving him in.   I can't imagine they were better at driving in players not named Edgar Martinez.   So I'd have preferred he got more hits. 
2/11/2014 3:16 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter were better than the guys who hit behind Martinez.   Seattle has had three good hitters since their inception and Jay Buhner(who had a few good power years).   And Buhner is the only one who hit behind EM. 

2/11/2014 3:18 PM
toddcommish
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Based on stats alone, Edgar hit the **** out of the ball when he swung.  That doesn't mean that he should've swung MORE.  That seems like that's what you guys are arguing...  that his performance on these extra swings are guaranteed to be better than the performance of the guy behind him.

That isn't necessarily true.
2/11/2014 3:21 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter were better than the guys who hit behind Martinez.   Seattle has had three good hitters since their inception and Jay Buhner(who had a few good power years).   And Buhner is the only one who hit behind EM. 

It should go without saying that he's in a better position walking and getting on base, rather than swinging at balls that are balls/borderline at best when he doesn't need to.  When Russ Davis is up next (he batted .265 and slugged .463. he averaged 37 doubles and 25 homers per 162 games as a Mariner. Not horrible) do you really want Edgar swinging at the 1-0 cutter away on the black, rather than taking the pitch? Do you understand why strikes are taken?
2/11/2014 3:23 PM
bad_luck
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No he doesn't. At least not when it's inconvenient to his argument.
2/11/2014 3:26 PM
toddcommish
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Barry Bonds is one of the top five hitters in baseball history.  I watched almost every televised Giants game during Barry Bonds' career here.  He didn't swing at pitches that he couldn't DRIVE.  The key is that when he got a "drive-able" pitch, he usually hit it REALLY REALLY HARD.

Of course, he's not in the HOF either, but that's a different story.
2/11/2014 3:29 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter were better than the guys who hit behind Martinez.   Seattle has had three good hitters since their inception and Jay Buhner(who had a few good power years).   And Buhner is the only one who hit behind EM. 

It should go without saying that he's in a better position walking and getting on base, rather than swinging at balls that are balls/borderline at best when he doesn't need to.  When Russ Davis is up next (he batted .265 and slugged .463. he averaged 37 doubles and 25 homers per 162 games as a Mariner. Not horrible) do you really want Edgar swinging at the 1-0 cutter away on the black, rather than taking the pitch? Do you understand why strikes are taken?
I know why strikes are taken.

I also know that the goal of the team at bat is to actually score runs, and not just "improve their chances of scoring runs".
2/11/2014 3:32 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/11/2014 3:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter were better than the guys who hit behind Martinez.   Seattle has had three good hitters since their inception and Jay Buhner(who had a few good power years).   And Buhner is the only one who hit behind EM. 

It should go without saying that he's in a better position walking and getting on base, rather than swinging at balls that are balls/borderline at best when he doesn't need to.  When Russ Davis is up next (he batted .265 and slugged .463. he averaged 37 doubles and 25 homers per 162 games as a Mariner. Not horrible) do you really want Edgar swinging at the 1-0 cutter away on the black, rather than taking the pitch? Do you understand why strikes are taken?
I know why strikes are taken.

I also know that the goal of the team at bat is to actually score runs, and not just "improve their chances of scoring runs".
3-0 pitch comes in to Edgar.  It's borderline, a hard, sinking fastball at the knees, and on the black.  Should Edgar swing?

Also, that last line is hysterical sounding.
2/11/2014 3:36 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter were better than the guys who hit behind Martinez.   Seattle has had three good hitters since their inception and Jay Buhner(who had a few good power years).   And Buhner is the only one who hit behind EM. 

It should go without saying that he's in a better position walking and getting on base, rather than swinging at balls that are balls/borderline at best when he doesn't need to.  When Russ Davis is up next (he batted .265 and slugged .463. he averaged 37 doubles and 25 homers per 162 games as a Mariner. Not horrible) do you really want Edgar swinging at the 1-0 cutter away on the black, rather than taking the pitch? Do you understand why strikes are taken?

Is it your contention that every pitch EM took was a cutter on the black?    Do you have any proof of this?

Pitches are taken for any number of reasons.   Do you think there's only one reason EM took a pitch?

2/11/2014 3:37 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/11/2014 3:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter were better than the guys who hit behind Martinez.   Seattle has had three good hitters since their inception and Jay Buhner(who had a few good power years).   And Buhner is the only one who hit behind EM. 

It should go without saying that he's in a better position walking and getting on base, rather than swinging at balls that are balls/borderline at best when he doesn't need to.  When Russ Davis is up next (he batted .265 and slugged .463. he averaged 37 doubles and 25 homers per 162 games as a Mariner. Not horrible) do you really want Edgar swinging at the 1-0 cutter away on the black, rather than taking the pitch? Do you understand why strikes are taken?
I know why strikes are taken.

I also know that the goal of the team at bat is to actually score runs, and not just "improve their chances of scoring runs".
wow
2/11/2014 3:39 PM
MikeT23
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Nevermind, I see your response to tec.  You DO believe that every pitch EM took was an impossible pitch to hit.   Got it.
2/11/2014 3:39 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:06:00 PM (view original):
And my argument has been that EM wasn't afforded the same protection as most of them.    The players hitting behind were not good.   Because of that, I need him to expand his strike zone just a tiny bit.
So it would make sense that he's walked a lot, right?

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter aren't nearly as good.  It's not just Martinez.

Most guys who hit behind the elite cleanup hitter were better than the guys who hit behind Martinez.   Seattle has had three good hitters since their inception and Jay Buhner(who had a few good power years).   And Buhner is the only one who hit behind EM. 

It should go without saying that he's in a better position walking and getting on base, rather than swinging at balls that are balls/borderline at best when he doesn't need to.  When Russ Davis is up next (he batted .265 and slugged .463. he averaged 37 doubles and 25 homers per 162 games as a Mariner. Not horrible) do you really want Edgar swinging at the 1-0 cutter away on the black, rather than taking the pitch? Do you understand why strikes are taken?

Is it your contention that every pitch EM took was a cutter on the black?    Do you have any proof of this?

Pitches are taken for any number of reasons.   Do you think there's only one reason EM took a pitch?

You're allowed to argue that he took too many pitches he could hit with no proof, and I can't argue that wasn't true?

Yea, he was a great hitter.  He mashed the baseball.  Based on that knowledge, I'm assuming he knew what he was doing.  Swing at the pitches he thought he can hit hard, don't swing at balls and pitches he didn't.
2/11/2014 3:41 PM (edited)
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 3:39:00 PM (view original):
Nevermind, I see your response to tec.  You DO believe that every pitch EM took was an impossible pitch to hit.   Got it.
I'm arguing he had as good an eye at the plate, and was as selective, as the other great sluggers in MLB history.  You're arguing he took too many pitches relative to them.  I don't see why that would be true.
2/11/2014 3:40 PM
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