2015 baseball HOF ballot. Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 7:28:00 PM (view original):
Oh christ. **** me for allowing this to happen.

Mike says something incredibly dumb. On repeat for 45 pages. The argument shifts slightly. And I'm the idiot for pulling box scores.

Don't sell yourself short.

You're an idiot for a lot of reasons. 
2/11/2014 7:36 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 7:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 7:28:00 PM (view original):
Oh christ. **** me for allowing this to happen.

Mike says something incredibly dumb. On repeat for 45 pages. The argument shifts slightly. And I'm the idiot for pulling box scores.

Don't sell yourself short.

You're an idiot for a lot of reasons. 
Luckily I have a looong way to go before catching up to you.
2/11/2014 7:45 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 7:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 7:16:00 PM (view original):
Is that an admission that Griffey rarely batted behind Martinez?
What???

What do you consider rare? I pulled 8 or 9 random box scores from the early 90's and Griffey hit behind Martinez in 7 of them. That's nothing conclusive but it certainly shows that Griffey did hit behind Martinez.
Here you go, buddy.    So you can be more informed.

EM:   1682/3944/1083 PA  3/4/5 spots
KG:   8932/984/677 PA  3/4/5

Did he hit behind EM a few times?  Probably.   Significant amount?  Unlikely.   
Martinez was batting 2nd often when he hit in front of Griffey. Probably good for 400-500 PA in that 2-3 combo. I'm sure there were times he hit 3rd and Griffey hit 4th.

A far cry from never. Also completely irrelevant to anything in this discussion.
2/11/2014 7:48 PM
MikeT23
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Who said never?   If it's irrelevant, why are you still talking about it?
2/11/2014 7:53 PM
bad_luck
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I guess we can stop talking about it and go back to your argument that Martinez's walks were a bad thing.
2/11/2014 7:55 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 7:16:00 PM (view original):
Is that an admission that Griffey rarely batted behind Martinez?
What???

What do you consider rare? I pulled 8 or 9 random box scores from the early 90's and Griffey hit behind Martinez in 7 of them. That's nothing conclusive but it certainly shows that Griffey did hit behind Martinez.

I pulled around a dozen random box scores from '96 to '99 (when they had ARod, Griffey, and Martinez as regulars).

Griffey consistently hit before Martinez.  In general, they were 2-3-4 in the lineup.

2/11/2014 8:36 PM
dahsdebater
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This is a stupid tangent, and basically irrelevant, because as bad_luck pointed out, there are very few situations - basically just one man on base, on 3rd, with 2 outs - where having a great hitter like Edgar Martinez at the plate with x men on base has a better offensive expectation than having x+1 men on base with a thoroughly average hitter at the plate.  So the argument that he should swing more because he wasn't properly protected is basically crap.

But I looked up 1996.  Would have done all 4 of those seasons, but I'm on a terrible old computer in my lab and BBR is taking too long to load splits.  Yes, Martinez was foolishly put behind Rodriguez and Griffey in '96.  But he had Buhner behind him slugging .577, and Sorrento behind him slugging .507.  So it's really not like he wasn't "protected."

2/11/2014 8:59 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 7:55:00 PM (view original):
I guess we can stop talking about it and go back to your argument that Martinez's walks were a bad thing.
Ha.   The next time you drop a subject will be the first time.     Except when you're so obviously wrong you just want it to go away.   Like Griffey batting after Martinez.  Or run probability not changing whether Martinez or Mendoza was at the plate.
2/11/2014 9:40 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 9:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 7:55:00 PM (view original):
I guess we can stop talking about it and go back to your argument that Martinez's walks were a bad thing.
Ha.   The next time you drop a subject will be the first time.     Except when you're so obviously wrong you just want it to go away.   Like Griffey batting after Martinez.  Or run probability not changing whether Martinez or Mendoza was at the plate.
That last one might be my all-time BL favorite.
2/11/2014 9:43 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 6:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 6:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 6:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 6:10:00 PM (view original):
"The real difference between a good major league hitter and a bad major league hitter is still pretty small."    If it's not a big enough difference to make a ripple in the run value pool, why not?
OK, maybe I'm wrong there. Maybe having Martinez up makes it more likely that you will score more runs in the inning.

But a big part of that reason is because he avoids outs so well. 
So the fact that one gets a hit 31% of the time and the other gets a hit 20% is irrelevant?
No that matters too. I didn't say "the only reason" did I?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you would "fix" about Martinez's line. Is his BA too low? Is his OBP too high?
Well, you've gone from "real difference is pretty small" to "he avoids outs so well' to "no that matters too".  

Do you remember your original point now that your stance has changed so much?

Yeah.  That led to this over the course of about 5 minutes. 

2/11/2014 9:53 PM
tecwrg
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Classic.  You just can't make this **** up.  Nobody would believe it.
2/11/2014 10:05 PM
MikeT23
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Fortunately, you don't have to.  It's right there on the screen.   Unlike the half a dozen times I've said "Would you like to quote the post where i said that?" after he made some **** up.

2/11/2014 10:12 PM
The Taint
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 5:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/11/2014 5:21:00 PM (view original):
Yes, if the pitcher makes a great pitch at 1-0, the odds of Martinez doing something good at the plate decreases.  That's what happens when pitchers make good pitches.

Tell me about how Edgar Martinez shouldn't be a HOFer partly because he was too patient relative to other elite hitters.  What evidence do you have?
So you looked it up and EM was a lesser hitter after working that 1-0 count to 1-1?

And is it still your contention that every pitch he took was a "great" pitch?
Was he better at 3-1 than 1-1 or at 1-0?
2/11/2014 10:40 PM (edited)
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Fortunately, you don't have to.  It's right there on the screen.   Unlike the half a dozen times I've said "Would you like to quote the post where i said that?" after he made some **** up.

Just so we can be clear (and I don't make anything up), do you (mike and/or tec) think Martinez's high OBP is a good thing or a bad thing?
2/11/2014 10:42 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/11/2014 10:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/11/2014 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Fortunately, you don't have to.  It's right there on the screen.   Unlike the half a dozen times I've said "Would you like to quote the post where i said that?" after he made some **** up.

Just so we can be clear (and I don't make anything up), do you (mike and/or tec) think Martinez's high OBP is a good thing or a bad thing?
It's a good thing.  Why wouldn't it be?
2/12/2014 5:20 AM
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