Posted by MikeT23 on 9/26/2014 3:19:00 PM (view original):
Anyone that thinks 28 points in BA, 14 pts in OBP and 7 pts in SLG over 20 years makes for a "similar player" is a ******* moron.    Not sure I can say it any nicer.    Hell, just start with 400 more hits in 90 more PA and go from there.    It's ridiculous to say "Well, yeah, other than that, they're pretty similar."

Say this out loud:

"He had 400 more hits in 90 more plate appearances.   They're pretty similar."

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Buddy Bell and Craig Biggio.

Similar career WAR values (Bell's is 1.0 higher in 2500 fewer PA's).

And only the magical 3 points of OPS+ difference between them.

Using your logic, they're similar players.

So if Biggio is a HOFer, why isn't Bell if they're similar players?

Maybe Bell deserves another look since we agree that Biggio should be in the hall.

To start, Biggio has Bell by 2500 plate appearances. That matters. A player's OPS+ goes down when they stretch out their decline phase. Cutting Biggio off at 10,000 PA (as if he retired in 2003) gives him a 117 OPS+. Now the difference is 8.

Biggio was a catcher/middle infielder and Bell was primarily a third baseman. I'm of the opinion that the offensive standards between second and third should be similar, so not a big deal, except for the time behind the plate. We aren't (weren't) really able evaluate catcher defense statistically, so I'm guessing that Biggio's WAR should probably be higher. I'm also not terribly confident in the accuracy of 1970's and 1980's defensive numbers, which contribute to 33% of Bell's WAR.

I'd say that Biggio sits just above my hall of fame cut off line while Bell sits comfortably below it.

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/26/2014 5:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/26/2014 3:19:00 PM (view original):
Anyone that thinks 28 points in BA, 14 pts in OBP and 7 pts in SLG over 20 years makes for a "similar player" is a ******* moron.    Not sure I can say it any nicer.    Hell, just start with 400 more hits in 90 more PA and go from there.    It's ridiculous to say "Well, yeah, other than that, they're pretty similar."

Say this out loud:

"He had 400 more hits in 90 more plate appearances.   They're pretty similar."

Who are you talking to?

For what it's worth, Biggio was a terrible catcher.   I don't even need to look up his stats to know it, cause I watched it.

BL will tell you that you can't watch baseball and make judgements on players.  You need a stat sheet. 

Posted by The Taint on 9/26/2014 5:32:00 PM (view original):
For what it's worth, Biggio was a terrible catcher.   I don't even need to look up his stats to know it, cause I watched it.

He was not good at catcher. You're right.

There's another player, his name is escaping me right now, but he was also terrible on defense. I think he may have come up once or twice in this thread already, I'll look back.

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 5:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Buddy Bell and Craig Biggio.

Similar career WAR values (Bell's is 1.0 higher in 2500 fewer PA's).

And only the magical 3 points of OPS+ difference between them.

Using your logic, they're similar players.

So if Biggio is a HOFer, why isn't Bell if they're similar players?

Maybe Bell deserves another look since we agree that Biggio should be in the hall.

To start, Biggio has Bell by 2500 plate appearances. That matters. A player's OPS+ goes down when they stretch out their decline phase. Cutting Biggio off at 10,000 PA (as if he retired in 2003) gives him a 117 OPS+. Now the difference is 8.

Biggio was a catcher/middle infielder and Bell was primarily a third baseman. I'm of the opinion that the offensive standards between second and third should be similar, so not a big deal, except for the time behind the plate. We aren't (weren't) really able evaluate catcher defense statistically, so I'm guessing that Biggio's WAR should probably be higher. I'm also not terribly confident in the accuracy of 1970's and 1980's defensive numbers, which contribute to 33% of Bell's WAR.

I'd say that Biggio sits just above my hall of fame cut off line while Bell sits comfortably below it.

LOL.

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 5:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 5:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Buddy Bell and Craig Biggio.

Similar career WAR values (Bell's is 1.0 higher in 2500 fewer PA's).

And only the magical 3 points of OPS+ difference between them.

Using your logic, they're similar players.

So if Biggio is a HOFer, why isn't Bell if they're similar players?

Maybe Bell deserves another look since we agree that Biggio should be in the hall.

To start, Biggio has Bell by 2500 plate appearances. That matters. A player's OPS+ goes down when they stretch out their decline phase. Cutting Biggio off at 10,000 PA (as if he retired in 2003) gives him a 117 OPS+. Now the difference is 8.

Biggio was a catcher/middle infielder and Bell was primarily a third baseman. I'm of the opinion that the offensive standards between second and third should be similar, so not a big deal, except for the time behind the plate. We aren't (weren't) really able evaluate catcher defense statistically, so I'm guessing that Biggio's WAR should probably be higher. I'm also not terribly confident in the accuracy of 1970's and 1980's defensive numbers, which contribute to 33% of Bell's WAR.

I'd say that Biggio sits just above my hall of fame cut off line while Bell sits comfortably below it.

LOL.

Double LOL.

Do Tony Phillips now!!!!!!   OPS+ is the same as Bell's. 

Graig Nettles is also the same as Bell's and he played 3B too. 

Nettles and Phillips!!!!!

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 5:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 5:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Buddy Bell and Craig Biggio.

Similar career WAR values (Bell's is 1.0 higher in 2500 fewer PA's).

And only the magical 3 points of OPS+ difference between them.

Using your logic, they're similar players.

So if Biggio is a HOFer, why isn't Bell if they're similar players?

Maybe Bell deserves another look since we agree that Biggio should be in the hall.

To start, Biggio has Bell by 2500 plate appearances. That matters. A player's OPS+ goes down when they stretch out their decline phase. Cutting Biggio off at 10,000 PA (as if he retired in 2003) gives him a 117 OPS+. Now the difference is 8.

Biggio was a catcher/middle infielder and Bell was primarily a third baseman. I'm of the opinion that the offensive standards between second and third should be similar, so not a big deal, except for the time behind the plate. We aren't (weren't) really able evaluate catcher defense statistically, so I'm guessing that Biggio's WAR should probably be higher. I'm also not terribly confident in the accuracy of 1970's and 1980's defensive numbers, which contribute to 33% of Bell's WAR.

I'd say that Biggio sits just above my hall of fame cut off line while Bell sits comfortably below it.

LOL.

LOL at what?

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 3:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/26/2014 3:25:00 PM (view original):
If it were possible to get 400 hits in 90 AB, you'd be hitting about 4.450.  

It's still only 3 points of OPS+.

Your unwavering devotion to advanced metrics in any baseball discussion points out your foolishness.

The fact that you and Mike would like to compare statistics from Houston (in the NL) to stats from New York (in the AL) as if they were apples to apples points out your foolishness.

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 5:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 5:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Buddy Bell and Craig Biggio.

Similar career WAR values (Bell's is 1.0 higher in 2500 fewer PA's).

And only the magical 3 points of OPS+ difference between them.

Using your logic, they're similar players.

So if Biggio is a HOFer, why isn't Bell if they're similar players?

Maybe Bell deserves another look since we agree that Biggio should be in the hall.

To start, Biggio has Bell by 2500 plate appearances. That matters. A player's OPS+ goes down when they stretch out their decline phase. Cutting Biggio off at 10,000 PA (as if he retired in 2003) gives him a 117 OPS+. Now the difference is 8.

Biggio was a catcher/middle infielder and Bell was primarily a third baseman. I'm of the opinion that the offensive standards between second and third should be similar, so not a big deal, except for the time behind the plate. We aren't (weren't) really able evaluate catcher defense statistically, so I'm guessing that Biggio's WAR should probably be higher. I'm also not terribly confident in the accuracy of 1970's and 1980's defensive numbers, which contribute to 33% of Bell's WAR.

I'd say that Biggio sits just above my hall of fame cut off line while Bell sits comfortably below it.

LOL.

LOL at what?

LOL at you.

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/26/2014 5:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/26/2014 3:19:00 PM (view original):
Anyone that thinks 28 points in BA, 14 pts in OBP and 7 pts in SLG over 20 years makes for a "similar player" is a ******* moron.    Not sure I can say it any nicer.    Hell, just start with 400 more hits in 90 more PA and go from there.    It's ridiculous to say "Well, yeah, other than that, they're pretty similar."

Say this out loud:

"He had 400 more hits in 90 more plate appearances.   They're pretty similar."

He had 400 more hits in 90 more plate appearances.   They're pretty similar.

Doesn't bother me.

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 9:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 6:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 5:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 5:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 4:52:00 PM (view original):
Buddy Bell and Craig Biggio.

Similar career WAR values (Bell's is 1.0 higher in 2500 fewer PA's).

And only the magical 3 points of OPS+ difference between them.

Using your logic, they're similar players.

So if Biggio is a HOFer, why isn't Bell if they're similar players?

Maybe Bell deserves another look since we agree that Biggio should be in the hall.

To start, Biggio has Bell by 2500 plate appearances. That matters. A player's OPS+ goes down when they stretch out their decline phase. Cutting Biggio off at 10,000 PA (as if he retired in 2003) gives him a 117 OPS+. Now the difference is 8.

Biggio was a catcher/middle infielder and Bell was primarily a third baseman. I'm of the opinion that the offensive standards between second and third should be similar, so not a big deal, except for the time behind the plate. We aren't (weren't) really able evaluate catcher defense statistically, so I'm guessing that Biggio's WAR should probably be higher. I'm also not terribly confident in the accuracy of 1970's and 1980's defensive numbers, which contribute to 33% of Bell's WAR.

I'd say that Biggio sits just above my hall of fame cut off line while Bell sits comfortably below it.

LOL.

LOL at what?

LOL at you.

For what, exactly?

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/26/2014 6:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 9/26/2014 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/26/2014 3:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/26/2014 3:25:00 PM (view original):
If it were possible to get 400 hits in 90 AB, you'd be hitting about 4.450.  

It's still only 3 points of OPS+.

Your unwavering devotion to advanced metrics in any baseball discussion points out your foolishness.

The fact that you and Mike would like to compare statistics from Houston (in the NL) to stats from New York (in the AL) as if they were apples to apples points out your foolishness.

Isn't adjusted OPS+, you know, adjusted?