Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 1:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 2/26/2015 1:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 1:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 2/26/2015 1:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 12:38:00 PM (view original):
If you're responding to me, just stop.   I'm not opening your dumbassery.    Otherwise, I'd end up like taint last night.   Arguing circles with you for two hours.

OPS+ and oWAR are almost identical for Trout during his three full BL seasons.    That's the point.    He thinks he could do better by striking out less.   I'm assuming he doesn't understand "advanced metrics".    Perhaps he should have said he'd work on hitting more homers.   That's real work.

Those particular stats are very close over the 3 seasons, and that's your point, but it's irrelevant. Trout isn't comparing himself to anyone else.

If I sell $500,000 in product one year, and $400,000 the next, I might be upset with myself for not being as successful as I was the previous year. There may be reasons why that happened (like Trout K'd more because pitchers started to figure him out), but I wasn't as successful. And telling me "Don't worry about it, you were the leading salesman this year!" doesn't mean I'm not trying to find ways to be as successful as I was that first year. That's what Trout's doing.

You're trying to make this a "advanced stats suck" thing, but it just doesn't apply to this situation. Trout wants to strike out less and get on base more, like he was previously.

I'm pretty sure I haven't said "advanced stats suck" in this thread.

My point is, and has been, that Trout thinks he could be a better player by striking out less.  He can't guarantee that any of those strikeoutless AB will be anything but different kinds of outs.   But he wants to put the ball in play more.    As I've said, repeatedly, maybe he doesn't understand "advanced metrics" because they say he's the same guy, production-wise, all three seasons.  

I think "baseball people" understand the value of not striking out better than "stat people".     Trout is "baseball people".

You probably consider me a "stat person" and I would tell you that Trout had better years in 2012-13 than last year. Again, I don't think Trout necessarily cares about stats that compare him to other players in the league right now. He sees the increase in Ks, decrease in how often he's on base, and wants to fix those.

He wants to be on base more. If his goal was "make sure my outs aren't so many strikeouts" then that would be dumb. But he understands the value of making less outs.

Not so much. 

I could say "He was better at this and this, worse at that and that" but it's pretty pointless.  You can see his stats too.    His stated goal is to strike out less.   The only thing we can assume is he believes that will make him a better player. 

FWIW, I'm not sure he was better in 12-13.   Total bases, one step closer to scoring a run, was at it's career high.    He scored more and drove in more(although I think we agree that's more opportunity based) but he moved himself, and other players, from station to station at a career best.   He thinks he can do better by striking out less.

Now you're really reaching. Total bases? If you want to say Trout was almost as good in 2014 as he was in 2013, fine. But to argue he was better in 2014 is dumb.

"He thinks he can do better by striking out less."

Sure. By making less outs. Not by making different outs.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 2:06:00 PM (view original):
Does he not want to turn some flyouts into hits?    GiDP into singles?   He wants to make more contact because he thinks he'll be a better player if he does.   Or take a walk rather than swing and miss.

And his OPS+ and oWAR were basically the same over the 3 years. 

I'd assume that would be nice for him.

I guess so. He didn't say.

He said he wants to strike out less and convert some of those into hits.

You were describing his total bases, which is essentially slugging percentage, which is why I brought it up.

Does wanting to strike out less and convert those AB into hits only apply to Trout?

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Does wanting to strike out less and convert those AB into hits only apply to Trout?

Nope and it also doesn't apply to, "an out is an out."

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are the same as balls in play or that players shouldn't try to get hits. Just that, once you're out, how you made that out doesn't matter.

Of course, this only plays back into what I've said.    Strikeouts are never converted into hits.   Balls is play can be.  Therefore, it stands to reason, that striking out less is a good thing. 

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Does wanting to strike out less and convert those AB into hits only apply to Trout?

Of course not.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 4:05:00 PM (view original):
Of course, this only plays back into what I've said.    Strikeouts are never converted into hits.   Balls is play can be.  Therefore, it stands to reason, that striking out less is a good thing. 

As long as striking out less doesn't impact other things you do negatively. Like, driving the ball. Hitting doubles, homers, etc.

If Trout strikes out 75 times a year, but only hits 20 doubles and 20 homers, it's not a good thing.

Does Trout not know this?    You wanna tell him or should I?

Why would you assume he doesn't know this?

Did you hit your head today?

Well, he felt the need to announce that he wants to strike out less.    So doesn't he know that it's not such a good thing if he only hits 20 homers and 20 doubles while cutting his strikeouts to 75?



Or I can stop playing this silly game and point out that most of this boils down to the situation.   I'm sure he struck out quite a few times when he, or his team, would have been better served if he cut back his swing and put the ball in play. 

Posted by bad_luck on 2/26/2015 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Does wanting to strike out less and convert those AB into hits only apply to Trout?

Nope and it also doesn't apply to, "an out is an out."

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are the same as balls in play or that players shouldn't try to get hits. Just that, once you're out, how you made that out doesn't matter.

And that's where your basic ignorance about baseball displays itself for all the world to see.

Is a ground out that advances a runner from second to third the same as a strikeout?

Is a fly out that scores a runner from third the same as a strikeout?

For God's sake, even a ground ball force-out that "replaces" a slow runner at first with a faster runner at first is a marginal improvement, and is better than a strikeout.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 4:05:00 PM (view original):
Of course, this only plays back into what I've said.    Strikeouts are never converted into hits.   Balls is play can be.  Therefore, it stands to reason, that striking out less is a good thing. 

Therefore, it stands to reason that no one argues that strikeouts are no different from balls in play.

Posted by tecwrg on 2/26/2015 4:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/26/2015 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Does wanting to strike out less and convert those AB into hits only apply to Trout?

Nope and it also doesn't apply to, "an out is an out."

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are the same as balls in play or that players shouldn't try to get hits. Just that, once you're out, how you made that out doesn't matter.

And that's where your basic ignorance about baseball displays itself for all the world to see.

Is a ground out that advances a runner from second to third the same as a strikeout?

Is a fly out that scores a runner from third the same as a strikeout?

For God's sake, even a ground ball force-out that "replaces" a slow runner at first with a faster runner at first is a marginal improvement, and is better than a strikeout.

Why do National League pitchers bunt when there's runners on base and less than two outs?  Why don't their managers just have them swing away with the high likelihood that they'll whiff?  After all, all outs are the same, correct?

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Well, he felt the need to announce that he wants to strike out less.    So doesn't he know that it's not such a good thing if he only hits 20 homers and 20 doubles while cutting his strikeouts to 75?



Or I can stop playing this silly game and point out that most of this boils down to the situation.   I'm sure he struck out quite a few times when he, or his team, would have been better served if he cut back his swing and put the ball in play. 

Yea, your first two sentences aren't related. He said he wanted to convert some of the strikeouts he had to hits.

He struck out a lot more than he did the first two years, and his BA and OBP suffered. He thinks they're interconnected, I tend to agree. If he can figure out how to get back to where he was, great. He may need to make some adjustments to the fact that he's getting a lot of high fastballs. 

Posted by tecwrg on 2/26/2015 4:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/26/2015 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/26/2015 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Does wanting to strike out less and convert those AB into hits only apply to Trout?

Nope and it also doesn't apply to, "an out is an out."

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are the same as balls in play or that players shouldn't try to get hits. Just that, once you're out, how you made that out doesn't matter.

And that's where your basic ignorance about baseball displays itself for all the world to see.

Is a ground out that advances a runner from second to third the same as a strikeout?

Is a fly out that scores a runner from third the same as a strikeout?

For God's sake, even a ground ball force-out that "replaces" a slow runner at first with a faster runner at first is a marginal improvement, and is better than a strikeout.

I honestly don't know what you and BL are arguing.   Have at it.

But, as I've pointed out, a strikeout never falls in for a hit, is never bounced to the 1B for an error, never advances a runner.

Trout wants to put more balls in play because he believes it will make him a better player.