Posted by tecwrg on 4/22/2015 2:13:00 PM (view original):
Striking out over 28% of your PA's over a career (as Adam Dunn has done) is a sign of "great plate discipline"?

Interesting.

Of course there's a trade off.  There's also an advantage.  That's why it's a trade off.

Wouldn't discipline be defined as "not swinging at balls, but only swinging at strikes" or something along those lines.

If that is the case Dunn had exceptional discipline. He rarely swung at a bad pitch.

I obviously agree with the concept of shortening the swing with two strikes, and taking much better advantage of situational hitting which is sorely lacking in the average BL hitter today, but I think "plate discipline" is a totally different subject. They may be related but they are not necessarily so.

Yeah, I think tec got that wrong.

Nonetheless, the main problem with scoring is the lack of balls in play.   That occurs because players strikeout or walk.    Since walking is generally considered good(unless you're the best ******* hitter on the team taking pitches so they can pitch to Jay Buhner), strikeouts are a problem.    Most of us would say striking out has a direct affect on the lack of scoring.

This would be the Jay Buhner who slugged .497 for the Mariners?

I'm still confused as to how you think an outcome with an associated OBP of 1 in front of a .500 slugger is a BAD thing.

Edgar Martinez.  But if you make the choice, who do you want swinging the bat, Edgar Martinez or Jay Buhner with an extra man on base, I'll take Buhner.

Not sure why you're talking about how undisciplined hitters are bringing averages down on one hand but then bagging on one of the most disciplined hitters we've seen in our lifetime on the other.

Posted by dahsdebater on 4/22/2015 11:19:00 PM (view original):
Edgar Martinez.  But if you make the choice, who do you want swinging the bat, Edgar Martinez or Jay Buhner with an extra man on base, I'll take Buhner.

I knew you couldn't do it.

So, rather than take strikes, you'd rather Martinez swing the bat instead of take pitches so Buhner can bat.

Thank you.    No further questions, your honor.

FWIW, any time I badmouth EM, it's because I'm ******* with BL.

But there are/were guys who won't/wouldn't expand their strike zone even if the situation called for it.    Martinez, Frank Thomas, Paul O'Neill come to mind immediately.    Pretty sure I recall Piniella calling O'Neill a ***** for not doing it.   Seems he felt a good hitter should drive the less-than-perfect ball in some situations rather than take the pitch and pass it to the next guy.   I tend to agree.   Even as kids, if you were better than ****** Jimmy on deck, you sort of knew that "a walk's as good as a hit" didn't always apply. 

Maybe when you were a kid that was true.  But even Paul O'Neill and Edgar Martinez will be lucky to hit .200 on balls that require them to "expand their strike zone" against Major League caliber pitching.  I bet ****** Jimmy ML 5-hole hitter can do better than that.

Plus if they take the walk ****** Jimmy ML 5-hole hitter has one more man on base than Edgar Martinez had.

Bullshit.  Do you think a professional hitter can't drive a ball that's 2 inches out of the strike zone?   Really?    You're going with that?

Yeah, I do think that.  We have metrics on this sort of thing now that PitchFX exists.  .200 on balls outside the strike zone is exceptional.  It's hard enough for hitters to hit balls inside the strike zone.

If the guy isn't swinging at the pitch - at least a guy as good as Martinez - there's a reason.  He knows he's not going to be terribly successful swinging at that pitch (or maybe the count is 3-0).  As an Orioles fan, I get to watch a lot of Adam Jones.  The past few years he's generally hit just under .400 on ABs ending on pitches in the strike zone, one of the best averages in the league.  Amazing how much better he could be if he could stop swinging at the balls outside the zone.  I don't believe that there's ever been an instance where the opposite was true.

I'm not saying I wouldn't ever condone swinging at a ball, for example, with 1 out and a man on 3rd, no other baserunners.  The opportunity cost is minimal there - if you do walk, you set up the double play, and with an out you're not all that likely to score at any rate.  But in virtually any other situation, I don't want my guy swinging at balls outside the zone.

Did anyone ever throw Vlad Guerrero a pitch in the strike zone?     How he do?

As much as Alfonso Soriano aggravated me on curveballs outside, that stupid SOB could hit the **** out of a ball that was ankle high.

Are you saying they're better hitters than Martinez?

And, FWIW, there are pitches that are 2-3 inches outside the strike zone and pitches that are 8-9 inches outside the strike zone.    That's a pretty big difference.