Broncos - Ware's the defense? Topic

Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 8:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 7:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 5:57:00 PM (view original):
So did Donovan McNabb for his entire career.   And, again, I don't really care about completion percentage, that's your thing, but I threw it in there because adding 20 completions this year puts him near your magical 55% for an absolute minimum for a starting NFL QB. 

I'll repeat, he completed 2/3 of his passes in college.   The windows were bigger and he could hold the ball longer but it's not like we're talking about some kid from Botswana that's never thrown a football.    I think, like with every NFL QB, the game will slow down for him and, instead of the hurried, get-it-out-of-my-hand pass, he'll start hitting those wide open receivers.  And, quite possibly, Denver might get him a legit target.
This.  You should read the other posts and not just the ones that are in response to you.
Ahhhhh.......so you do believe that his college completion percentage has some bearing on his NFL accuracy.

Confirmation that you're just a Tebow apologist and don't know what you're talking about.

You should just watch the games. Even when he's not under pressure, he misses the tight NFL window way too often.......and if a QB can't hit that window by the time he gets to the NFL, he's unlikely to ever hit it.

I'm a Raiders fan so I have no reason to apologize for Tebow. 

But the simple fact of the matter is that he threw the ball well enough in HS to get a scholarship at a major football power.   He threw the ball well enough in college(and on his pro day) to be drafted in the first round of the NFL draft.  He threw the ball well enough to get some playing time his rookie season.   He threw the ball well enough under a new coach and VP of football operations(neither of whom expressed any confidence in him) to get some starts this season.  He threw the ball well enought to win some games and make the playoffs.  He threw the ball well enough to win a playoff game.  Pretending that he can't throw the ball with any modicum of accuracy is simply stupid.

One could argue that he has more credentials and has had a better career path, at this point, than your beloved Tom Brady(starts 2 seasons in college, picked in the 6th round, throws three passes his first pro season and only gets on the field because Bledsoe nearly dies from a tackle). 

I'll repeat this since you can't seem to understand.  Virtually every NFL QB has improved his accuracy from his first active pro season(because some sit like Brady) into his first 3-4 seasons.  As I pointed out, if you add 20 completions this season(2 per game and maybe dropped passes are simply caught for this to have happened), he's at 53% and all we're talking about is his inability to throw a spiral.  
1/15/2012 9:23 PM
I'd guess Demaryius Thomas dropped 2 a game by himself.  But like Tebow this was basically his rookie season and he looks like a kid that will only get better.


1/15/2012 9:44 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 1/15/2012 8:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 1/15/2012 3:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by stinenavy on 1/15/2012 3:33:00 PM (view original):
He had a passing and rushing TD in the first SD game. My mistake, 6 instead of 7. So a total of 17 passing TD and 8 rushing in 16 starts.

It makes you look foolish to keep looking for the absolute best case scenarios and be like "SEE ELWAY AND YOUNG SUCKED TOO WHY CAN'T TEBOW BE JUST LIKE THEM!?!?!?

Being realistic, I think a better comparison may be Kordell Stewart, but Tebow has a ways to go to be as good as a passer.
How am I looking for the best case scenario.

You're saying "Tebow will NEVER get better"...I'm saying "Tebow CAN get better, and here's evidence."  I'm not guaranteeing anything - you are. Do you see the difference?
What's the point of posting Steve Young's stats and mentioning that Elway had a poor first season? Spare me for believing that your point was to try and say that because they were poor, that Tebow has a chance.

The Tebow led offense scored 18.7 PPG this season. That's awful. I agree that he was the QB of a team that made the playoffs, but their crazy good record in close games is not something that is sustainable, not because Tebow did it, but because there's 50 years of data saying that it's not sustainable.

I never said "Tebow will NEVER get better". So I'm not sure who you're trying to quote. I just said that he's not going to magically become a good passer. Even if he makes it to 53% or whatever, that's still untolerable.

Tebow's going to get another season to show if he's capable of being a legit starting QB, but what this means is Denver will be in the Matt Barkley sweepstakes.
Again, do you read what you write?  "Magically become a good passer". 

Forget Tebow - speaking totally in general, athletes in EVERY SINGLE SPORT progress. Do all of them progress? No. But there are very few players who peak in their first year. They get better with time, reps, experience, etc. If a guys slugs 40 HR in AAA in baseball - do you expect him to hit 40 in his first ML season? If he comes up and hits 15-20 his first season, are people gonna say "man, this guy sucks...he'll never hit for consistent power. He hit 20 fewer than in AAA last season!"? There are very few athletes whose numbers don't drop when they go up a level - it's a new game, a faster game, and adjustments are required. A lot of guys make those adjustments and get better. Will Tebow? I think so, but only time will tell. The point is, you can't say "he had a bad first season as a starting QB - he's always gonna suck."

You want to talk about my Tebow "love", but you're totally ignoring your completely irrational argument, insinuating that it takes "magic" for a player to improve as their career progresses. It happens all the time, and that's what the Young, Elway, Cunningham, McNabb, etc. examples are pointing out. I don't think Tebow will be as good as Elway or Young - but I do believe he'll improve as a passer, enough to keep his team competitive on a regular basis, especially in Fox's system.
1/15/2012 9:46 PM
Do you read what other people type? I never said he wouldn't improve. There's a big difference between where Tebow is at now as a passer (laughably terrible) and good. So he can improve but still be bad.

My comments are directed only at Tebow and not referring to anyone else. You're coming up with a strawman argument in which you keep insinuating that I think no one can improve. That's not the case. My point is that Tebow is soooooo far from being an effective passer I just don't see how it can happen. As I stated earlier he's had access to elite coaches probably since HS (HS QB camps, All-Star games etc.) and this is where he's at.
1/15/2012 10:21 PM
Posted by livemike on 1/15/2012 9:44:00 PM (view original):
I'd guess Demaryius Thomas dropped 2 a game by himself.  But like Tebow this was basically his rookie season and he looks like a kid that will only get better.


Guaranteed growth based on how he looks? lol Let me give you the number of my broker -- he'll have all kinds of **** to sell to you, all with much gaudier numbers than Tebow.

Josh Freeman "looked" a lot better than Tebow in his rookie year and regressed badly this year, livemike. Part of that might have been schedule. Another part might be having defensive coordinators having a little more familiarity with him and building their schemes and game plans accordingly. And Tebow looks a lot more limited than Freeman IMHO.
1/15/2012 10:23 PM
You do realize that elite coaches in HS have no bearing on the NFL game, right? The best HS coaches probably couldn't even coach in college. And some of the best college coaches (Saban, Spurrier, etc.) have been mediocre at best at the NFL level. So Tebow's past coaching really has no bearing on his NFL performance.
1/15/2012 10:30 PM
Posted by willgibson on 1/15/2012 10:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by livemike on 1/15/2012 9:44:00 PM (view original):
I'd guess Demaryius Thomas dropped 2 a game by himself.  But like Tebow this was basically his rookie season and he looks like a kid that will only get better.


Guaranteed growth based on how he looks? lol Let me give you the number of my broker -- he'll have all kinds of **** to sell to you, all with much gaudier numbers than Tebow.

Josh Freeman "looked" a lot better than Tebow in his rookie year and regressed badly this year, livemike. Part of that might have been schedule. Another part might be having defensive coordinators having a little more familiarity with him and building their schemes and game plans accordingly. And Tebow looks a lot more limited than Freeman IMHO.
I meant to say Thomas looks like he'll only get better.

But yah, I think Tebow will improve.  He's a superior athlete with great work ethic so I don't think it's a stretch to expect improvement.  With his current physical style I don't think he has to improve much on the passing side.  Bigger question for me would be how long can he last with the physical style because I think it's unlikely he'll improve enough as a passer to make up for the lack of running threat. 
1/15/2012 10:34 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 9:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 1/15/2012 8:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 7:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2012 5:57:00 PM (view original):
So did Donovan McNabb for his entire career.   And, again, I don't really care about completion percentage, that's your thing, but I threw it in there because adding 20 completions this year puts him near your magical 55% for an absolute minimum for a starting NFL QB. 

I'll repeat, he completed 2/3 of his passes in college.   The windows were bigger and he could hold the ball longer but it's not like we're talking about some kid from Botswana that's never thrown a football.    I think, like with every NFL QB, the game will slow down for him and, instead of the hurried, get-it-out-of-my-hand pass, he'll start hitting those wide open receivers.  And, quite possibly, Denver might get him a legit target.
This.  You should read the other posts and not just the ones that are in response to you.
Ahhhhh.......so you do believe that his college completion percentage has some bearing on his NFL accuracy.

Confirmation that you're just a Tebow apologist and don't know what you're talking about.

You should just watch the games. Even when he's not under pressure, he misses the tight NFL window way too often.......and if a QB can't hit that window by the time he gets to the NFL, he's unlikely to ever hit it.

I'm a Raiders fan so I have no reason to apologize for Tebow. 

But the simple fact of the matter is that he threw the ball well enough in HS to get a scholarship at a major football power.   He threw the ball well enough in college(and on his pro day) to be drafted in the first round of the NFL draft.  He threw the ball well enough to get some playing time his rookie season.   He threw the ball well enough under a new coach and VP of football operations(neither of whom expressed any confidence in him) to get some starts this season.  He threw the ball well enought to win some games and make the playoffs.  He threw the ball well enough to win a playoff game.  Pretending that he can't throw the ball with any modicum of accuracy is simply stupid.

One could argue that he has more credentials and has had a better career path, at this point, than your beloved Tom Brady(starts 2 seasons in college, picked in the 6th round, throws three passes his first pro season and only gets on the field because Bledsoe nearly dies from a tackle). 

I'll repeat this since you can't seem to understand.  Virtually every NFL QB has improved his accuracy from his first active pro season(because some sit like Brady) into his first 3-4 seasons.  As I pointed out, if you add 20 completions this season(2 per game and maybe dropped passes are simply caught for this to have happened), he's at 53% and all we're talking about is his inability to throw a spiral.  
Name one QB that has significantly improved his accuracy (throwing accuracy, not completion percentage). 

Don't bother, because the answer is NONE.  That doesn't mean that they don't improve their completion percentage because they do.  They just do it by improving their ability to read defenses, understand offenses, etc.

And I'm still trying to figure out if you actually believe the two paragraphs of BS you posted about him being a good enough thrower for this and that.  You do realize that there's a significant difference between being a college QB and an NFL QB, right? 

Oh, nevermind.  You obviously don't or you wouldn't be posting this nonsense.  I'm going to just save everybody the 10 pages of back and forth and just leave you to your Tebow man-crush.
1/15/2012 10:53 PM

So improving one's technique cannot improve one's accuracy?

Granted, throwing a football is mechanically different from pitching a baseball, but pitchers have been known to improve their control of the strike zone over time via tweaking their mechanics with the help of a pitching coach.  Are you saying that conceptually, the same couldn't be true of an NFL QB with tweaking arm angle, release point, etc.?

I'll admit that I've never been a football player or football coach, but it seems silly to think that mechanical issues in throwing a football cannot be addressed and corrected.

1/15/2012 11:23 PM
The funny thing is with Tebow, most of his missed passes are short. I'm not convinced it's a mechanical issue as much as a "there's my receiver, I better hurry up and get the damn ball out at 100mph so I don't get killed" mentality. He lobs the deep ball up nicely most of the time - some are wobbly, but for the most part he seems to be fine. It's the quick short passes where he just winds up and fires and throws it into the ground or wide of his WR. That is something that getting reps and slowing the game down will help. Also, as Elway has said, if Tebow's footwork in the pocket improves, he'll be able to set his feet and make better throws.

Jv's either trying to moke or he has no clue about how young athlete's develop. And I'm also VERY confused as to how a QB improves his completion percentage without improving his accuracy. "They just do it by improving their ability to read defenses, understand offenses, etc" - Really? This is the best you can come up with? Unless all a young QBs incompletions are batted down, picked off or thrown to the wrong spot because he doesn't know the play, improving his accuracy is the way he's going to improve his completion percentage.

Are you allergic to common sense or something?
1/15/2012 11:30 PM

So, if a QB can be accurate enough to complete 2/3 of his passes in college, where I assume he got the ball close enough for them to make spectacular plays, yet is below 50% in the NFL, where I guess receivers become worse, there's no turning back?   He's just lost whatever he had going on just a couple of years ago?

Methinks someone is either drunk or stupid.   And it isn't me.

1/16/2012 7:09 AM
Maybe JVF has a different definition for "accuracy".  He's been "accurate" enough to be a big-time college QB, high draft pick in the NFL and a starting QB in the NFL.  There's no way he gets that far if he can't throw a football "accurately" enough to be a QB.
1/16/2012 8:50 AM
OUTTA THE LEAGUE IN 3-4 YEARS

HARK!

BOOK IT
1/16/2012 8:54 AM
Only if he decides to become a congressman or open a mission in Croatia. 
1/16/2012 8:58 AM
Posted by livemike on 1/15/2012 10:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by willgibson on 1/15/2012 10:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by livemike on 1/15/2012 9:44:00 PM (view original):
I'd guess Demaryius Thomas dropped 2 a game by himself.  But like Tebow this was basically his rookie season and he looks like a kid that will only get better.


Guaranteed growth based on how he looks? lol Let me give you the number of my broker -- he'll have all kinds of **** to sell to you, all with much gaudier numbers than Tebow.

Josh Freeman "looked" a lot better than Tebow in his rookie year and regressed badly this year, livemike. Part of that might have been schedule. Another part might be having defensive coordinators having a little more familiarity with him and building their schemes and game plans accordingly. And Tebow looks a lot more limited than Freeman IMHO.
I meant to say Thomas looks like he'll only get better.

But yah, I think Tebow will improve.  He's a superior athlete with great work ethic so I don't think it's a stretch to expect improvement.  With his current physical style I don't think he has to improve much on the passing side.  Bigger question for me would be how long can he last with the physical style because I think it's unlikely he'll improve enough as a passer to make up for the lack of running threat. 
Yeah, Thomas looks like he's going to be a star.

Tebow showed he could perform at the NFL at times but was dreadful more other than not. I don't doubt his work ethic, which is admirable, or his ability to command a huddle. But there's a significant gap between where his skills are compared to the rest of his cohort (Bradford, Stafford, Freeman, Newton, etc.) or even some of the guys coming out in the next couple of years (Luck, Barkley, RG3).

While it's not impossible to bridge that gap, it also doesn't necessarily follow that high character people who work hard are necessarily going to make those improvements, particularly at the age of 24. As I said, defensive coordinators will adjust and the Broncos will play a much tougher schedule in 2012. I don't expect JT to see this or MIkeT to acknowledge any of these points, but I hope you don't dismiss this as "hate" or quote his Pop Warner stats to me.
1/16/2012 10:57 AM
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Broncos - Ware's the defense? Topic

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