The dropped fly ball (error) is immaterial since the runner would have "routinely" scored had a catch been made. The second baseman commits an error which allows the run to score in a manner not at all routine.

IT IS ROUTINE!! The only way he wouldn't score is if the second baseman threw the damned guy out at home from DP depth!! Geez. Any other possible outcome (DP, force out, etc) results in a run!! Do you watch baseball??

Thunder, while your rationale makes sense in the "common sense" department, the flaw that you're making is that you repeatedly bring up a DP. While we agree that was the intent of the defensive team, a DP cannot be assumed from a scoring perspective. All you can assume is the "first half" of the DP, i.e., the second baseman throwing to the shortstop. (Well, all we can really assume is a FC-the fielder is going to throw the ball somewhere. However, we agree that DP depth indicates the 2Bman intends to throw to the SS). You're not addressing the batter/runner beating the throw to first, or just a simple force out at 2B, which is what the scorer is forced to assume. All the error does, from a scorer's perspective, is prevent the second baseman from throwing to second, first, or home.

I also feel pretty confident that any error on the 1Bman on the second half of an attempted DP would kill the RBI, if for no toher reason than that the 'muff' term in the rules is quite vague. The spirit of the rule is that an error made by the person covering the bag on the latter half of a DP would void an RBI.

Quote==Thunder

" If he completes the DP that the infield depth clearly indicates is the infield's intended response, we all agree that the batter gets no RBI.  But if that DP isn't executed for the simple reason that the 2B commits an error in starting the play, the batter is somehow the beneficiary and is credited with an RBI because of this error?"

You're omitting the intermediate step; you go from "successful DP" to "DP not turned b/c of error." You're not acknowledging what the scorer is forced to assume: that the error only costs the team one out (instead of two). The scorer cannot assume a DP & scores a FC, which is one out, and which would give the batter an RBI. In that sense, the batter is not a "beneficiary."

I guess if the scorer can really only evaluate whether the FC is successfully executed, not the DP, you're right.  You have passion, conviction and probably the rulebook on your side, so I'm conceding.  Still think the logic is fuzzy -- if they can execute the DP their infield depth intended, the batter gets no RBI, but if they muff that plan in the first half of its execution, the batter gets the RBI because the scorer sees only the failed FC, not the failed DP.  But I get it, and I guess if that's the most illogical thing happening in the world today, we're all in good shape.

The scorer doesn't have to assume anything beyond the fact that the error by the second baseman on an infield groundball allowed the run to score uncontested. This cancels any discussion about DP, FC, or any of the million scenarios that could have happened had the ball been fielded cleanly.

You're right about the DP, but wrong about the FC. Go back to the last page and read the rules. Again. It will click eventually.

From the scorer's perspective, the error costs the team one throw to a base, be it to second, home, first, or third. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

When the batter hits the ball to the second baseman, if you FREEZE everything right before it gets to the second baseman, the ball in play is already a FC.

The error prevents the fielder from successfully executing a FC. It does not cost the team a DP. It prevents execution of a FC. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then, it is up to the scorer to determine if a force out at home was a plausible outcome of the play. If it was, no RBI is credited. If it is unlikely, an RBI is credited.

That is in line with (a)(3). Arguments in this thread FOR an RBI are based on the little information we have, which is that the guy was playing at DP depth.

Any other method to score the play is incorrect.

There is only one thing that needs to be decided in order to figure if its an RBI or not.  With the information given, ie the middle at DP depth, the 2b is likely going to second base with the ball. If the 2b picks up the ball cleanly and flips it to second base and the play ends, does the batter get credit for an RBI?  Yes.  Discussion over.  As Inkd has said, in the scorer's eyes, the error only prevents the 2b from completing the FC.

First of all I understand everything you've said. I understand your line of reasoning. The problem with your "Freeze" argument is that it pertains to any ball put in play in a million different  scenarios.
    What I am trying to convey is that the runner scoring on an infield ground ball error in this scenario is outside the scope of "ordinarily would score". There may very well be a very close play at the plate, we simply don't know, but it could happen. We do know if there is a routine fly ball to the warning track, the runner would "ordinarily" score if the fielder catches it or not, absolutely no way he's thrown, out all things being equal. That is the spirit of the rule. If the infield was "in" there would be no discussion here because the defense is actively trying to prevent a run, error no RBI. With the infield at DP depth they are conceding the run de facto. The batter should not be rewarded for simply putting the ball in play, the direct result of which is an infield error which allows the run to score, I repeat "uncontested".

If a team has a multi-run lead late in the game, they play the infield back.  If a batter hits a grounder to the 2b and a runner scores from third, the batter is credited with an RBI even though the runner scored "uncontested."  The batter is absolutely rewarded for "simply putting the ball in play."  Defensive indifference only comes into affect on stolen bases.

Again, the run is going to score whether or not the error is made, unless you are arguing that a 2b in double play depth is going to throw the ball home.  All the error does is prevent the 2b from forcing the runner at second. 

im 29 years old and i played second base my entire life, including 5 years (4 seasons) at a d2 school.   never in my life have i been instructed to try to throw the ball home when in DP depth.  If there is a need to cut the run down at the plate, you are either in or half-way.  Since this sim doesnt have a half-way setting (or an inf back setting from what i can tell) there are only in, DP, and normal.  of those, only "in" suggests that the run scoring is of importance to the defense and would result in a play being made toward the plate.  So again, the run is going to score regardless of the error, and is thus an RBI.  the only things that would keep it from being an RBI would be a DP or an error on the catch attempting the second out after the first out has been recorded. 

 I'm not saying the second baseman would throw the ball home. I'm not saying a DP would have prevented an RBI (which it would have). I'm not saying the batter may not have received an RBI via a FC. I am saying the error precluded the batter from in any way "earning" an RBI in this scenario. As soon as the infielder "boots" the ball all other contingencies are off the table. DP, FC whatever, it doesn't matter, there is no way any type of "play" can be executed. For that reason I do not see awarding the batter an RBI.

and thats the problem.  because that is not what the rule says.  the rules says that if the runner would have ordinarily scored without the error, then an RBI is credited.  in this case, because there are less than two outs, the runner on third base would score if the 2b doesnt make the error, so an RBI is credited.  an rbi would not be credited if the 2b was attempting to make a play to the plate when the error occured because the error directly lead to the run scoring.  but the 2b at DP depth suggests that his move was to second, therefore the error does not effect the runner from third moving home.

would you argue for no RBI if the 2b makes a clean play and forces the runner moving from first to second but the batter reaches safely?

I would allow an RBI via rule 10.04 (a) (1) "...infield out..", in that instance.
I would not allow an RBI via rule 10.04 (a) (1) "unaided by an error..." in this instance.
The "suggestion" to 2B is irrelevant because the error denies the fielder of any options.

10.04 Runs Batted In
A run batted in is a statistic credited to a batter whose action at bat causes one or more runs to score, as set forth in this Rule 10.04.
(a) The official scorer shall credit the batter with a run batted in for every run that scores
(1) unaided by an error and as part of a play begun by the batter's safe hit (including the batter’s home run), sacrifice bunt, sacrifice fly, infield out or fielder's choice, unless Rule 10.04(b) applies;
(2) by reason of the batter becoming a runner with the bases full (because of a base on balls, an award of first base for being touched by a pitched ball or for interference or obstruction); or
(3) when, before two are out, an error is made on a play on which a runner from third base ordinarily would score.

There are the rules.  Look at rule 10.04a3...these rules are not against each other, they are multiple conditions under which an RBI is awarded.  If any of them are valid, then an RBI is given.  Therefore, if there are less than 2 outs and an error is made and the runner would have scored anyways, an RBI is awarded.  How does this not describe the exact situation we are talking about?

Were there less than 2 outs?  Yep.
Would the runner have scored if there were no error? Yep, unless you say the 2b was going to throw home to make a play on the runner, which, his playing at DP depth suggests he wont.
Thus- RBI.