Perhaps a stupid question, but does Bonds get any credit for never being caught?

We're all reasonably sure he used, but the fact is, he's never been caught.  We have guys who allegedly only used once and tested positive or got ratted out.  For Bonds to not have any witnesses out there with any credibility come forward, especially in this day and age when everyone wants to out the cheaters at any and all costs, is incredibly impressive. 

And I have to say, watching the whole Clemens fiasco, Bonds has handled all of this like a pro.  I don't like the guy, but I think he'll be the one that gives voters a much tougher time than other PED guys (McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Clemens, etc.)
4/23/2011 5:50 PM
The best thief is still a thief.
4/24/2011 12:37 PM

It's remarkable that the government could bungle the Bonds case so badly that they would arouse public sympathy for Bonds, but they have.  Obstruction is kind of a prosecutorial sham -- the "poor man's perjury" when they know they will never get a conviction on perjury.  If rambling answers is the standard for proving guilt, then it's time to throw all of Congress in jail.  Not a bad idea, come to think of it.

Bonds' conviction will likely be overturned on appeal, and Bonds isn't likely to see jail time in any case.  But Bonds also won't see Cooperstown any time in the near future unless he takes his family on a recreational outing.  It's virtually impossible (as this thread has proven) to subtract the "juice factor" from a player's inflated numbers and calculate whether he would have achieved a HOF performance without steroids.  And it's ludicrous to say that PED's don't enhance performance.  They may not help hand-eye coordination, but they improve recovery time from injuries, give you more stamina so you're injured less often and increase muscle mass, increasing bat speed and leading to more power. 

Nobody will want to single out one of the steroid crowd for HOF inclusion at the expense of all the rest, so Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro and A-Rod will all be on the outside looking in until some veterans committee gives them a free pass 20 years from now when steroids are no longer a big issue (because it will be all about designer genes by then).

And Lance Armstrong will be the next to be indicted.

 

4/24/2011 7:59 PM
I don't think steroids are 1% of the explanation.  I think it's larger than that. I think the data available is about 1% of the data you need to show a ballpark figure.

I just think the whole thing is BS.  I think we're all too morally sensitive and empathy-challenged.*  I know that sounds like a contradiction in terms, but it's really not.  I think people get comfortable in a belief system, and when encountered with a situation that causes friction with the system, oppose the frictional element out of resentment for causing discomfort.  You can imagine I'm a delightful counterpart in a political argument.

*Empathy-challenged: Practically every one of you would use PEDs to play in the major leagues.

Anyway, it's all BS.  MLB practically begged these guys to do this.  They gave McGwire and Sosa reacharound after reacharound while they juiced their way into our hearts.  Suddenly, a less likable guy decides he's gonna do it too.  *Now* we have a big problem.  *Now* it's a big enough deal to get freaking Congress involved.  *Now* it's time to have the FBI and IRS spending thousands of man-hours and millions of dollars over our oh-so-tender feelings about freaking baseball.

Enough!, I say.  I'm tired of everybody trying to claim they are in harmony with The Soul Of The Game.  Guys have taken every edge they could since day one.  They will continue to do so.  Some have been lionized for it.  MLB has condoned a fair amount of it.  It's not new.  Get over it.
4/24/2011 10:25 PM
Reacharound after reacharound is a great line, and you made a great post even if I don't agree with your moral relativism.  When you take steroids you're cheating, and one of the risks, in addition to throwing splintered bats around in a roid rage, dying of brain cancer at the age of 50 and becoming a Jose Canseco clone is that you're penalized when and if you're caught.

Of course athletes take every competitive edge they can and of course many people would sell their souls for greatness (just ask Robert Johnson) but that doesn't mean we have to write a blank check for every time they choose to take an unfair advantage.  At some point the unfair advantage tilts the playing field enough for fans who are paying their hard earned money to watch these games to press the communal tilt button and it has nothing to do with preserving the soul of the game.  Part of the soul of the game, if there is such a thing, comes from its cheaters like Joe Jackson, Ty Cobb and Pete Rose who are every bit as much a part of the legend as guys like Lou Gehrig and Stan Musial.

Somewhere along the spectrum of steroids, ando, spies in the stands, spitters, corked bats and throws that get hip checked into the outfield, every generation has to decide what constitutes an acceptable and unacceptable competitive advantage and what the proportionate levels of penalty will be, and of course the lines will be arbitrary and of course the popular athletes will often fall on one side of the line and be lionized while the unpopular athletes will often fall on the other side of the line and be scapegoated.

If you're saying that Barry Bonds is a scapegoat, you're absolutely right, and his trial is a sham.  And one of the main reasons has nothing to do with PED's.  It has to do with the fact that he's an a**hole.  If you don't think popular guys get cut more slack than unpopular guys, just ask Bill Clinton about Monicagate, Ronald Reagan about Contragate and Richard Nixon about Watergate.  `Twas ever thus. 
4/24/2011 11:23 PM
Those two posts remind me of the opening scene of Reservoir Dogs.  


4/25/2011 12:05 AM
Thunder: Thanks and points taken.  So do we scapegoat them all, or just the ones who failed tests, or just the ones who failed tests and are ********, or just everybody who was musclebound (like noted slugger Marvin Benard or those RPs), or just everybody except for Saint Jeter?

I just don't see how to divvy them up without being foolish in some way.  For every guy who got caught there were, what... 5, 10, 25, 50 more guys who didn't?  We're gonna put steroid guys in the Hall.  We almost certainly already have.  Hang asterisks all over their plaques for all I care.  Make their plaques pink with a hologram that says "STEROID ERA!  THIS GUY IS A WEENIE!" but let's put in the guys who played baseball better than anyone else and then have the arguments anyway.
4/25/2011 12:06 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/25/2011 12:05:00 AM (view original):
Those two posts remind me of the opening scene of Reservoir Dogs.  


Made my day.
4/25/2011 12:06 PM
What we need is a new wing at Cooperstown called the Baseball Cheaters Hall of Fame. Hell, the location of the hall is based on a lie to begin with, so the sanctuary has never been pure.
4/25/2011 12:30 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 4/25/2011 12:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/25/2011 12:05:00 AM (view original):
Those two posts remind me of the opening scene of Reservoir Dogs.  


Made my day.
One of my favorite movies.  Maybe it's inadvertent homage.  Not of the Lady Gaga variety.
4/25/2011 1:06 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 4/24/2011 10:27:00 PM (view original):
I don't think steroids are 1% of the explanation.  I think it's larger than that. I think the data available is about 1% of the data you need to show a ballpark figure.

I just think the whole thing is BS.  I think we're all too morally sensitive and empathy-challenged.*  I know that sounds like a contradiction in terms, but it's really not.  I think people get comfortable in a belief system, and when encountered with a situation that causes friction with the system, oppose the frictional element out of resentment for causing discomfort.  You can imagine I'm a delightful counterpart in a political argument.

*Empathy-challenged: Practically every one of you would use PEDs to play in the major leagues.

Anyway, it's all BS.  MLB practically begged these guys to do this.  They gave McGwire and Sosa reacharound after reacharound while they juiced their way into our hearts.  Suddenly, a less likable guy decides he's gonna do it too.  *Now* we have a big problem.  *Now* it's a big enough deal to get freaking Congress involved.  *Now* it's time to have the FBI and IRS spending thousands of man-hours and millions of dollars over our oh-so-tender feelings about freaking baseball.

Enough!, I say.  I'm tired of everybody trying to claim they are in harmony with The Soul Of The Game.  Guys have taken every edge they could since day one.  They will continue to do so.  Some have been lionized for it.  MLB has condoned a fair amount of it.  It's not new.  Get over it.
I think there is enough evidence to show its a combination of steroids better training/ medical technology, smaller parks, smaller strike zones and faster pitches (more hard breaking balls).

I don't think you can really say "practically everyone of us would use."  I think a lot of us would but perhaps not most of us, then again most of us aren't as competitive.

I agree that MLB and the fans practically gave Mac and Sosa a licence to abuse.
4/25/2011 10:36 PM
Posted by thunder1008 on 4/24/2011 11:23:00 PM (view original):
Reacharound after reacharound is a great line, and you made a great post even if I don't agree with your moral relativism.  When you take steroids you're cheating, and one of the risks, in addition to throwing splintered bats around in a roid rage, dying of brain cancer at the age of 50 and becoming a Jose Canseco clone is that you're penalized when and if you're caught.

Of course athletes take every competitive edge they can and of course many people would sell their souls for greatness (just ask Robert Johnson) but that doesn't mean we have to write a blank check for every time they choose to take an unfair advantage.  At some point the unfair advantage tilts the playing field enough for fans who are paying their hard earned money to watch these games to press the communal tilt button and it has nothing to do with preserving the soul of the game.  Part of the soul of the game, if there is such a thing, comes from its cheaters like Joe Jackson, Ty Cobb and Pete Rose who are every bit as much a part of the legend as guys like Lou Gehrig and Stan Musial.

Somewhere along the spectrum of steroids, ando, spies in the stands, spitters, corked bats and throws that get hip checked into the outfield, every generation has to decide what constitutes an acceptable and unacceptable competitive advantage and what the proportionate levels of penalty will be, and of course the lines will be arbitrary and of course the popular athletes will often fall on one side of the line and be lionized while the unpopular athletes will often fall on the other side of the line and be scapegoated.

If you're saying that Barry Bonds is a scapegoat, you're absolutely right, and his trial is a sham.  And one of the main reasons has nothing to do with PED's.  It has to do with the fact that he's an a**hole.  If you don't think popular guys get cut more slack than unpopular guys, just ask Bill Clinton about Monicagate, Ronald Reagan about Contragate and Richard Nixon about Watergate.  `Twas ever thus. 
Barry Bonds is most definately not a scape goat.  Bonds isn't bearing other's sins, he is bearing his own, as the most obvious, visable and sucessful steroid abuser.
4/25/2011 10:38 PM
Ahh, but the question still remains...does he deserve to be elected into the HOF given that he has never admitted nor has it been proven that he has cheated?

What ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?
4/25/2011 10:41 PM
Posted by truemen on 4/25/2011 10:41:00 PM (view original):
Ahh, but the question still remains...does he deserve to be elected into the HOF given that he has never admitted nor has it been proven that he has cheated?

What ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?
Like I wrote, I wouldn't vote for him...  I'd table the issue for the Vet's committe.
4/25/2011 11:43 PM
Posted by zubinsum on 4/25/2011 11:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by truemen on 4/25/2011 10:41:00 PM (view original):
Ahh, but the question still remains...does he deserve to be elected into the HOF given that he has never admitted nor has it been proven that he has cheated?

What ever happened to "Innocent until proven guilty"?
Like I wrote, I wouldn't vote for him...  I'd table the issue for the Vet's committe.
Communist
4/26/2011 7:06 AM
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