Posted by hughesjr on 6/1/2016 10:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 10:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bk41129 on 5/31/2016 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I actually like the new scouting system. There could be some changes that would benefit it, but for the most part I like it. The new scouting is fresh and is a lot of fun in my opinion. It takes some work to find some talent. You don't just pay a service and know everything about every player in the state. You actually have to send your scout places, attend camps, and host camps to discover talent.

You forgot "get lucky enough to have your camps and your scouts find the right guy."

You can find every recruit available in your division very cheaply with FSS. Then you can concentrate (in Div 2 and 3) within 500 miles.

WRT getting lucky enough to find the right guys with your Scouting and camps.. Isn't that how it normally works in Basketball recruiting, especially at non Div-1 schools?

I really like all the concepts. Scouting to find players. Free attention points, free scholarship offers. Scouting and recruiting monies separated. I think is is significantly more realistic.

Nobody said this isn't conceptually more similar to RL recruiting. But one thing that's been discussed ad nauseum over the years is the balance of realism vs. gameplay, and it seems that in general, when push comes to shove, the vast majority of the users prefer gameplay. Given that they're paying to play the game, that's probably to be expected.

If the update enhances realism at the cost of giving players the opportunity to build the best teams they can, it's not a good thing. Right now, I would argue that the core strategy of this game centers on putting together a team that works together at an elite level. Especially at D2 and D3, the most talented team is not necessarily as good as the best-constructed team. And even at D1 that tends to be the case, with some exceptions with overwhelmingly talented high D1 teams. All of recruiting strategy, battling, etc. is ultimately designed to fulfill that goal of putting the best-constructed team on the court.

If we now see fewer recruits at a reasonable precision, the primary strategic aspect of the game is undermined; hence, my belief that this is going to increase the role of luck in gameplay. Given that the games themselves are already decided by a series of RNG outputs, I don't think that increasing randomness is a positive. Realism is very much a secondary concern to me.

The worst argument for anything in HD is the "in real life..." argument. If I wanted to be a college coach I'd strap on a pair of 80s short shorts and tube socks. Mimicking Kenny Powers I'd grow out trashy facial hair and a mullet. Then I'd head out to the nearest school and request a job. Then I'd get told that I didn't have the experience, expertise, or appropriate attire for the position. Even if the administration decided to give me the time of day they'd start a background check on me and I'd have to explain that im not that therewas47 but after reviewing that case that group of nuns definitely provoked that incident. What if they did hire me? It certainly wouldn't be for head coach. Here I am d3 assistant coach by day. Oh nice look at that fancy can almost pay my bills money. Don't worry though, now I'm working a second job on nights and weekends. Yeah I got the position title jiffy luber confused with the national automotive service chain Jiffy Lube. I'm not too proud though, so, I keep the job and live a life of silent shame. So I'm starting to rock out as a d3 coach and then I figure out there's no d3 athletic scholarships. Well in real life what do I do? Of course, I blackmail one of my best clients from my second job into sending their d1 athlete son to my school. The following season comes to an end and this kid is averaging 20 and 10 and we have gone from mediocre to top 10 in the country. I talk to my agent because, you know, all d3 assistants have one and ask him about jobs. I ask how about Texas? He doesn't reply with maybe you should win more or maybe you should get more experience. No, he quietly excuses himself. Convinced I've lost my marbles, he calls the cops. They look me up and get me confused with that other therewas47. Now here I am serving a 5 year sentence at the local looney bin. I'm only allowed uncafffeniated soda, never enter into a room illuminated by natural light, and am provided with 15 minutes of Internet service a week. Deeply distraught, I look for a release from my life of constant woo. There it is hoops dynasty. What a game. It sounds like a blast. Then I click on the forums and notice that every discussion is jaded by the in real life argument. "IN REAL LIFE," I scream. A flood of memories from wrongful convictions to jiffy lubing rush through my mind. Attendants rush in....a heavy sedative is added to my medication schedule...it's day 226. Still over 1500 days to go. My best friend is one of the few possessions I'm allowed, a toothbrush. I name the toothbrush Jake. I start to grind the handle of my best friend into a shank. Today is the day I bust my way out of this joint. Me and you, Jake. Me and you.

Posted by nachopuzzle on 6/2/2016 1:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/1/2016 11:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 6/1/2016 10:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 10:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bk41129 on 5/31/2016 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I actually like the new scouting system. There could be some changes that would benefit it, but for the most part I like it. The new scouting is fresh and is a lot of fun in my opinion. It takes some work to find some talent. You don't just pay a service and know everything about every player in the state. You actually have to send your scout places, attend camps, and host camps to discover talent.

You forgot "get lucky enough to have your camps and your scouts find the right guy."

You can find every recruit available in your division very cheaply with FSS. Then you can concentrate (in Div 2 and 3) within 500 miles.

WRT getting lucky enough to find the right guys with your Scouting and camps.. Isn't that how it normally works in Basketball recruiting, especially at non Div-1 schools?

I really like all the concepts. Scouting to find players. Free attention points, free scholarship offers. Scouting and recruiting monies separated. I think is is significantly more realistic.

And more strategic, and more fun.

So, how exactly is more strategy involved? You begin with zero information, start making decisions based on the simplest and vaguest of information, and then repeat that exact same process (in one form or another) over and over and over and over and over again. I think you've seriously inverted the the notions of strategy and tactics...except in the new process even tactics are kinda pointless to a degree because the general letter grades are nonsense.

I get that what people consider more fun, and even strategy, are extremely relative concepts, and I accepted that fact a long time ago. But while you'll have to make more choices in the new system in actuality you will have less choices. Now, your ability to put the best possible team (given your situation, style, and recruiting circumstances) on the court is even undermined.

The more formulaic the process, the less strategy. Adding layers, luck and ambiguity to the process presents more opportunities for innovation, more risk vs. reward scenarios, and hopefully results in a system that is better than looking at a spreadsheet, identifying the numbers in the correct columns, and then hoping teams with more scholarships go after a bigger fish and leave your guy alone. The real test of whether or not gameplay is improved is going to be when we get done with recruiting. If the tedium of the old auction format is retained, and it still comes down to being able to outspend your rivals, then the fancy new scouting format is new mustard on the same turd sandwich.

Nacho : In the end, if I am not stratigically responsible for my team success, I am out. If it's luck involved, there is HD, when you actually go for a Puerto Rico player and can't spend all the money you'd want to spend on scouting trips, or the scouting trips your AD brings back don't answer the real questions you have, but that is basically it. It can happen sometimes when you decide to get a good stats player but can't scout the state he is in. But it's rare since all sharks have already seen that player, and if he is free, it means he sucks somehow. He will be a back-up to say the least.

I don't think WIS intend to make the game less strategic. I will tell you what I like so far and what needs to be adressed. I think most people will relate to it.

What I like

1. The Layout, the drag and drop options, all stuff you can do quicker now with this new interface.
2. I like the fact that you scout during the season. I actually did not know I would like it, but I think it's great. Yeah, it's more realistic, but at the same time, it gives you time to build a team that will work together. When you are out of money in HD these days, you won't scout until the end of the jobs period.
3. Recruiting just when the season finish is also really nice. Hopefully, it takes care of early entries and do not penalize good teams.
4. The fact you aren't obligated to scout the whole state to get one players attribute is great.

What I dislike

1. The four steps scouting trips. I think it needs to be changed or rethink.
2. Random discoveries, is it random or are you getting all players from your state?
3. Getting same recruits by camps, states scouting or making your AD work and discover players. I spent money, why do I always get the same players? Anyways, I won't go further than 500 miles when I start recruiting... Gimme new players!
4. The top 100 list. It's a bit unfair since all top teams A- to A+ could only live by this... It goes down to two stars players.. No need to discover anything, they are right in front of your face. I would get rid of that.
5. The fact that pulldowns don't exist anymore.

What needs to be developped

1. We need to be able to put our recruits in a list, where we see their full stats and we can give them numbers or préférences... High, medium, low. I liked the three degrees list but I'd rather have 4 or 5 options.

There are some elements that obviously need tweaking - it's a beta after all - but overall the beta version is growing on me fast. The every-three-hours drill sucks far worse than anything in the beta, and I like the direction this is moving the game.

Posted by kcsundevil on 6/2/2016 9:49:00 AM (view original):
There are some elements that obviously need tweaking - it's a beta after all - but overall the beta version is growing on me fast. The every-three-hours drill sucks far worse than anything in the beta, and I like the direction this is moving the game.

I worry that we'll still have this, just at a different time of the season, when recruiting actually starts. The hope is that interest is based more on how your team matches up with the recruit's preferences, rather than how much you can spend, which mitigates the tedium of the 3-hour cycles by reducing the stakes.

therewas: That was like staring into the sun, only once you truly commit does it then become glorious.

A bow at the waste and a tip of the cap, good sir.

Posted by shoe3 on 6/2/2016 8:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 6/2/2016 1:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 6/1/2016 11:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 6/1/2016 10:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 5/31/2016 10:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bk41129 on 5/31/2016 10:04:00 PM (view original):
I actually like the new scouting system. There could be some changes that would benefit it, but for the most part I like it. The new scouting is fresh and is a lot of fun in my opinion. It takes some work to find some talent. You don't just pay a service and know everything about every player in the state. You actually have to send your scout places, attend camps, and host camps to discover talent.

You forgot "get lucky enough to have your camps and your scouts find the right guy."

You can find every recruit available in your division very cheaply with FSS. Then you can concentrate (in Div 2 and 3) within 500 miles.

WRT getting lucky enough to find the right guys with your Scouting and camps.. Isn't that how it normally works in Basketball recruiting, especially at non Div-1 schools?

I really like all the concepts. Scouting to find players. Free attention points, free scholarship offers. Scouting and recruiting monies separated. I think is is significantly more realistic.

And more strategic, and more fun.

So, how exactly is more strategy involved? You begin with zero information, start making decisions based on the simplest and vaguest of information, and then repeat that exact same process (in one form or another) over and over and over and over and over again. I think you've seriously inverted the the notions of strategy and tactics...except in the new process even tactics are kinda pointless to a degree because the general letter grades are nonsense.

I get that what people consider more fun, and even strategy, are extremely relative concepts, and I accepted that fact a long time ago. But while you'll have to make more choices in the new system in actuality you will have less choices. Now, your ability to put the best possible team (given your situation, style, and recruiting circumstances) on the court is even undermined.

The more formulaic the process, the less strategy. Adding layers, luck and ambiguity to the process presents more opportunities for innovation, more risk vs. reward scenarios, and hopefully results in a system that is better than looking at a spreadsheet, identifying the numbers in the correct columns, and then hoping teams with more scholarships go after a bigger fish and leave your guy alone. The real test of whether or not gameplay is improved is going to be when we get done with recruiting. If the tedium of the old auction format is retained, and it still comes down to being able to outspend your rivals, then the fancy new scouting format is new mustard on the same turd sandwich.

So, and I'm asking this honestly, you think a system which adds increasingly fractional decisions based on the vaguest possible information - and by your own words introduces "layers, luck, and ambiguity to the process" - actually directly increases, not reduces, the strategic functionality of the game. Is that what your suggesting, because I want to be clear on this???

But to address your other conclusion for the moment, the one about recruiting money and open scholarships making the game formulaic: I think there have been AMPLE suggestions over many years that could absolutely address not only this problem and the nature/timing of recruiting itself, while allowing it remain a strategy based game. "Out of the box solutions" are truly terrible only if you fundamentally do not understand the situation you are facing...which obviously seems to be the case here...the users were completely ignored all those years, therefore the solution isn't outside the box its outside the freaking building.

Here is a simple start, limit class size to 5 (or 4 for I all care)...BOOM, you're welcome, and there's a bunch of them that have been tossed around for literally years now. People seem to be acting like this update is in some way innovative and I think this couldn't be farther from the truth, this is the opposite of innovation.

edit: And I wasn't trying to be simplistic or dismissive about that scholarship limit, I think that would have serious positive effects on the nature of recruiting, and that's just for the money aspect alone.

So, and I'm asking this honestly, you think a system which adds increasingly fractional decisions based on the vaguest possible information - and by your own words introduces "layers, luck, and ambiguity to the process" - actually directly increases, not reduces, the strategic functionality of the game. Is that what your suggesting, because I want to be clear on this???

But to address your other conclusion for the moment, the one about recruiting money and open scholarships making the game formulaic: I think there have been AMPLE suggestions over many years that could absolutely address not only this problem and the nature/timing of recruiting itself, while allowing it remain a strategy based game. "Out of the box solutions" are truly terrible only if you fundamentally do not understand the situation you are facing...which obviously seems to be the case here...the users were completely ignored all those years, therefore the solution isn't outside the box its outside the freaking building.

Here is a simple start, limit class size to 5 (or 4 for I all care)...BOOM, you're welcome, and there's a bunch of them that have been tossed around for literally years now. People seem to be acting like this update is in some way innovative and I think this couldn't be farther from the truth, this is the opposite of innovation.

edit: And I wasn't trying to be simplistic or dismissive about that scholarship limit, I think that would have serious positive effects on the nature of recruiting, and that's just for the money aspect alone.


yep...for years ignored and now this ...which is not clear will do a dang thing for what people wanted other then THE PROMISE it will. I have no CLUE why this PROMISE could have not been done in the game that WIS bought and Ignored for years

Posted by nachopuzzle on 6/2/2016 1:08:00 PM (view original):
therewas: That was like staring into the sun, only once you truly commit does it then become glorious.

A bow at the waste and a tip of the cap, good sir.

Thank you

"So, and I'm asking this honestly, you think a system which adds increasingly fractional decisions based on the vaguest possible information - and by your own words introduces "layers, luck, and ambiguity to the process" - actually directly increases, not reduces, the strategic functionality of the game. Is that what your suggesting, because I want to be clear on this???"

Your question, as framed, is incoherent to me. If you're asking if I think more ambiguity increases strategy, the answer is an unequivocal "yes".

First off, I disagree with your premise. I don't think the new system involves "increasingly fractional decisions". You're looking at it through a different kind of lens than the one I'm using. Every sports simulation I've ever played, going back to Baseball Mogul in the 90s, has had essentially the same debate - should the players have visualized ratings, and how absolute or vague should they be? HD has fallen very heavily on the concrete and unambiguous side. This update can be seen as a slight - though noticeable - shift toward more ambiguity; not even so much regarding the ratings, which are still absolute and discoverable (with a little extra effort), but regarding the existence of those players. Some players are simply going to be out of your view. A non-top-100 player who doesn't attend any camps is going to be visible only to a player who uses the assistant and gets lucky. So the old formula of "find players with the best ratings, then game your budget to save up enough money to go get them" is no longer a viable way to dominate. You have to be more creative to put together a good class year after year. It will be harder (presumably) for players to master the process to the point where they can dominate year after year. Conference power should become more fluid. A lot of opportunity is going to be created for a lot of players who have felt as though the game lends itself to a dominant class that's unreasonably hard to break into.

As for the other stuff, it's just not worth wasting words or emotional energy on. Going on about the past and what did or didn't or should have happened doesn't do anything. If it bothers you that much, spend your money somewhere else. I encourage people to put the effort into the beta (or learning about it, if you're not participating) and assume that this is the game that's going to exist, once the beta has run its course. If you can handle a little ambiguity in the process of trying to get the best players for your system, it's going to be a fun game.

ETA - shoe3 = pkoopman

Sheesh I pay for "Some players are simply going to be out of your view. A non-top-100 player who doesn't attend any camps is going to be visible only to a player who uses the assistant and gets lucky." Sounds like a Carnival Barker...there was Enough luck in the game as existed,,,