bistiza you have totally unrealistic views of human nature. you have a kid, who is not getting paid to play, who will never get paid to play. he just wants to play. he might tolerate the 5 minutes less than he wants (and honestly, you are making a huge and foolish assumption - he may want/be willing to take 20 minutes, after all hes an upperclassman in d3, thats usually how it works - and maybe he is already giving you the 8 minutes out of the kindness of his heart. but he really begrudges you those next 7 minutes). but even if he tolerates it, HES NOT GOING TO BE HAPPY!

and what the hell are you smoking? "They'd talk to the coach and probably concede the five minutes because they play for a great team and will get more minutes their senior year." - what is this great team? you talk like this is a player for Kentucky who was born and bred a wildcat, and his life dream is to play for Kentucky. you on the other hand, are coaching a BORDERLINE TOURNAMENT CALIBER D3 TEAM. that is not a "great team" by any standards, except maybe by your own standards in the fantasy world within a simulated world, in which you are playing. but by any other standards, that is not a "great team". and even if you had a high end d3 team, its DIVISION THREE FOR GOD'S SAKE. kids come to play. they don't come to ride the bench to listen to His Lordship preach about honor and integrity.

Posted by bistiza on 9/4/2012 2:56:00 PM (view original):

?If you want to know how a  ball player will react to playing 5 min/gm vs. 25 before he comes to your school
 

Right here is the problem with misinterpretation.

In the case of my player, we're NOT talking about 5 vs. 25 - we're talking about 5 vs. 10. Huge difference.

?The players you want do exist but there's no way you can be absolutely sure they will be who they say they will be as freshmen by the time they are seniors. There are just way too many variables for that.

This is one of the most logical points anyone has made. The players do exist, but it IS difficult to tell who they are. In real life, there would be more ways to potentially attempt to know. In the sim, it's impossible, I agree.

again, you need to share the drugs you are taking. you think real coaches can predict how ****** a kid will be if they don't get to play as a junior? ridiculous. you think they can differentiate between "sort of a little bit ******", "kinda ******", and "fairly ****** off"? i think they could tell between like, a coach's pet who will probably take it relatively easily, or a psychopath who will go on a rampage and murder the rest of the team. but not like you are talking. SHARE YOUR DRUGS ALREADY. that way the rest of us can join your fantasy world within the simulated world, and have all the fun you seem to be having! its not fair, the rest of us don't get to build relationships with our players, be a father figure for the poor boy who was raised by his mother, have tea parties for the walkons, molest the towel boys, etc...

?That is a complete change from your original position, which is that they should take whatever you give them and if they don't like it they should work harder.  Why 5 minutes less now? 

This is what you're not understanding: The two are one in the same. Taking what I give my player IS THE SAME EXACT THING as accepting five minutes less. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Again: I am giving him 5mpg. He wants 10mpg. If he takes five less, that IS taking what I"m giving him.

Stop saying I've changed my stance when it's the same just worded differently and you're just getting hung up on the wording.

?The burden of proof is never on the large group, it's always on the dissenter. 

Logically, it doesn't matter which group is larger or smaller. There is no difference. Both must provide evidence to support their position in the same way.

?The reality is that you are a moron trying to portray yourself as a brilliant debater.  The facade is too thin.  Everyone can see that you're a moron. 

It's easy to call someone names and appeal to the masses, isn't it? Never mind both are logical fallacies and don't hold water in any medium of debate.

?The only conclusion is that you are not capable of rational thought. 

The startling reality is that I'm extremely rational, and that's what makes arguing with me so difficult. If I were half as "irrational" as you and others would like to portary me, it would be very easy to simply dismiss me and ignore my posts and move on.

The reason people can't do that is because I am inherently logical and rational. You may want to believe otherwise because it's annoying having to deal with that logic, but that doesn't make it so.

Honestly, dahs, I expected more of you. You seem like an intelligent person - I didn't expect you to be committing so many obvious logical fallacies like this.

gillespie,

I consider my team to be a great enough team that the player in question should be willing to take 5mpg less than he expects. If you factor his talent level and the prestige and ability of the team as a whole and also consider the talent on the team relative to him, he's getting about what he should have expected (if he were real and able to discern all of that).

Very few real players would complain over five minutes of playing time, and even if they did, they wouldn't lose that much effort over it. They'd talk to the coach and probably concede the five minutes because they play for a great team and will get more minutes their senior year.

This is an opinion.  This is where you have been able to offer no proof, no supporting evidence.  "Very few players" ? I think very many players would complain about the playing time.  This is where I ask you what you are basing this on if not your opinion. 

I have played sports at fairly competitive level.  I am a competitor, I have never been happy to just be on a team.  Never.  It is not a character flaw. it is drive.

It amazes me time and time again - all you have to do is give a dissenting opinion and back it up with logical reasoning and people go crazy. They'll call you names, appeal to each other, and try to bully you, but precious few of them will dare to actually engage you in a real debate on the issue at hand.

This has been quite entertaing and educational that way, but there's not much point to this thread anymore.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm fine with agreeing to disagree with anyone, and have been for some time.

If some of you are so bent on proving your point (which will never happen anyway), perhaps you need to relax a bit and realize this is just a message board about a game. It doesn't need to be that intense. Just chill.

Posted by bistiza on 9/4/2012 2:56:00 PM (view original):

?If you want to know how a  ball player will react to playing 5 min/gm vs. 25 before he comes to your school
 

Right here is the problem with misinterpretation.

In the case of my player, we're NOT talking about 5 vs. 25 - we're talking about 5 vs. 10. Huge difference.

?The players you want do exist but there's no way you can be absolutely sure they will be who they say they will be as freshmen by the time they are seniors. There are just way too many variables for that.

This is one of the most logical points anyone has made. The players do exist, but it IS difficult to tell who they are. In real life, there would be more ways to potentially attempt to know. In the sim, it's impossible, I agree.

It's more of a difference in minor detail than it is a misinterpretation. The case still stands. My bench players can avg 12 minutes running a zone so if your upperclassman isn't getting at least 10 as a back up, you don't find it logical that he would complain in this system? I think it suggests also that this upperclassman is sitting in a 3rd string position if he can't get 10 a game. I think I'd be disheartened by that if I were a player.

milwood,

Then we'll have to agree to disagree on that opinion.

The same could be said for the opinion you offered when you say "it's not a character flaw, it's drive".

I know plenty of people with a great deal of drive, myself included, who don't make demands of others and then give them ultimatums if those demands aren't met. That's not drive - that's just being petulant.

rednation,

Of course he's in a third string position. He won't be next year, though.

Sometimes things happen that way. Sometimes you don't get what you want when you want it.

Personally I think the sooner real life kids learn those life lessons, the better off they'll be.

As for in the sim, I'll play who I want when I want. But if he is less effective next year or transfers and doesn't play for me, I'm going to be unhappy about it because I don't think it's realistic at all.

Posted by bistiza on 9/4/2012 3:14:00 PM (view original):
It amazes me time and time again - all you have to do is give a dissenting opinion and back it up with logical reasoning and people go crazy. They'll call you names, appeal to each other, and try to bully you, but precious few of them will dare to actually engage you in a real debate on the issue at hand.

This has been quite entertaing and educational that way, but there's not much point to this thread anymore.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm fine with agreeing to disagree with anyone, and have been for some time.

If some of you are so bent on proving your point (which will never happen anyway), perhaps you need to relax a bit and realize this is just a message board about a game. It doesn't need to be that intense. Just chill.

you need to practice what you preach. you are truly a gigantic hypocrite, and that is dead obvious to everyone but you (surprise surprise)

gillespie,

 I do practice what I preach. I've been saying for some time I'm willing to agree to disagree. That's exactly what I'm preaching.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/4/2012 2:58:00 PM (view original):
You said you haven't changed your stance.  Now you just said this: "All I'm asking is for my DIII player who was recruited by someone else to be willing to take five less minutes per game than he seems to be willing to take. That's ALL there is to it."  That is a complete change from your original position, which is that they should take whatever you give them and if they don't like it they should work harder.  Why 5 minutes less now?  Because that's what's convenient for your 1 player on your 1 team in this 1 instance?  Seriously?  Get over yourself.  The burden of proof is never on the large group, it's always on the dissenter.  The fact that you don't realize that and seem convinced that it's everyone else's job to convince you that you are wrong is borderline hilarious.  The reality is that you are a moron trying to portray yourself as a brilliant debater.  The facade is too thin.  Everyone can see that you're a moron.  Obviously we're never going to convince you that we're right, because at various points in this thread there have been at least 5 or 6 really convincing arguments that any rational human being would have at least thought about in depth before laughing off which you dismissed offhand.  The only conclusion is that you are not capable of rational thought.  Because you're a moron.  That is all.

I dunno about "moron", man.  I don't think he's a moron.  Deluded and solipsistic, yeah, I'd say that, but he spells okay and can figure out how to use the forums.  He's just really, really bad at arguing and thinks he's really, really good at it.

More wiki.

Then again, just got to his response to you, I guess he doesn't know what a logical fallacy is.  "Moron" might still be a little strong.

gillespie,

I consider my team to be a great enough team that the player in question should be willing to take 5mpg less than he expects. If you factor his talent level and the prestige and ability of the team as a whole and also consider the talent on the team relative to him, he's getting about what he should have expected (if he were real and able to discern all of that).

- another point in which you will never get the community to agree. you have a mediocre team with mediocre prestige and mediocre players... in DIVISION THREE. and yet you call it great. i think more and more you are just delusional, not trying to troll or be a stubborn idiot (although you are doubtless stubborn, maybe not the other parts). you are really just living on another planet. i hope for their sake, you don't manage people.

anyway, since when are players happy riding the pine because they deserve to be there? since... well, since NEVER. a couple players, yeah. the majority, not in this lifetime, not on this planet. its great that you think the world is such a wonderful place where the tigers protect the gazelle from the lions, but this isn't a fairy tale. these are high school standouts who are mostly spoiled teenagers. and most of them are good enough to make the college level because they have DRIVE. they WANT to play, they WANT to win. and they are used to doing it, in highschool. so why, magically, are they satisfied riding the pine as juniors in college? especially on a mediocre division 3 team? come on man, you obviously never played sports in any sort of serious or semi serious capacity. to everyone on the board who did, your theory on how it works is a complete joke. it just doesn't work that way. and if you've never played, how the hell are you making these unbelievable assumptions about how it works - and moreover, why the hell do you stick to them so strongly? do you REALLY have a clue? no, you don't need to answer that one, the rest of us know the answer. do you? do you REALLY have any clue or is this just a theory you 100% pulled out your ***? not that there is anything wrong with it, but god damn, dont defend it so hard.

""The people do exist and I explained that to you before. It's just probability""

this BY FAR is my favorite line of the whole debate.  he exists because he probably exists.  priceless

llama,

This thing called the internet allows you to do research fairly easily. Check out logical fallacies. You may want to check out specifically "straw man" and "bandwagon", but there are a whole host of logical fallacies at work here, and this grand old internet can teach you all about them.

?you have a mediocre team with mediocre prestige and mediocre players...

My team is the ninth most talented in DIII by ratings. That's not mediocre by any standard.

In fact, the teams talent and ability is the chief "problem" which has resulted in the player in question playing less minutes than he'd like.

milkamania,

I said he exists  not because he probably exists, but because PROBABILITY indicates he would exist. Go look up the definition of statistical probability and then come back and respond once you've done that and you'll make more sense.