Inter-conference battles - Page 3 - Hoops Dynasty

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Posted by tooslim on 4/3/2014 11:24:00 AM (view original):
I've been playing this for about 3\4 of a year and would like to get the opinion of veteran coaches on a subject on
jumping\poaching of recruits by fellow conference members.

Recently in one of my D2 leagues 2 different coaches in my conference jumped in on recruits that were considering
me and me only for a couple of cycles. Obviously it hurt my team and my recruiting season.
Most of the leagues I am in--especially the D3 leagues--there is no inter-conference jumping\poaching of recruits.
It has either been spoken or assumed that there isn't enough money in recruiting in D3 to be able to afford to battle
fellow conference members and it seriously hurts the conference when it happens. Obviously sometimes two teams in
the same conference get on a recruit on the same cycle and in that instance it is every man for himself.
I mentioned (OK--vigorously complained--lol) to the other people in my D2 conference that it wasn't in the best interest for us to be unnecessarily
fighting each other and it fell on deaf ears. Especially since we are not a strong conference usually ranked 6th or 7th in that D2 World.

To me in D3 it should never happen, period.
In D2--I guess I can understand the case that it could happen--but still don't agree with it.
In D1--I haven't played in it, but can definitely see that in the power conferences it is going to happen and would be expected, but in the lower level conferences it probably shouldn't happen.

So what do you veteran coaches think?

maybe it fell on deaf ears because, as others have pointed out, if you all explicitly agree not to battle each other - or even to really try to avoid it - its collusion, plain and simple. if you want to extend this courtesy to others, in the hopes they return it - thats fine. but take it any further and its cheating and explicitly prohibited in this game. by the updated collusion rules, even trying to get your conference mates to agree to this is collusion, so you should probably be aware of that - i didn't read your rant but most likely you broke the rules and could be penalized for doing so.

i suggest you do what many of us do - try hard to find alternatives to or simply make sure never to poach a conference mate - but when someone doesn't return the courtesy - cease to extend them that courtesy. its pretty simple and it gets you a lot further than vigorously complaining, making far fewer enemies.

also, the fact that you are complaining about this happening a couple cycles in is kind of crazy. cycle before signings, yeah, everyone is going to get ****** off, at least a little - even most of us who would acknowledge there is nothing wrong with it. it just sucks when it happens to you, so late, by someone with some common interests. but that early in recruiting? thats totally different, you have to realize not everyone races to get on a recruit first, and so its ridiculous to expect everyone to give you credit for doing so - that would force intense first-cycle pushes to get on players to be the only viable strategy in the game (other than waiting and poaching all the idiots who spent too much up front), and not everyone wants it that way. you just have to deal with it, they have every right to play how they want, in benefit of their own team.

heres an honest question for you - who won that battle? if you lost, you have no leg to stand on - the other guy had you beat and YOU should have backed down. if you didn't, its him who has the gripe. if you won, and the other coach never had a chance, then yeah thats annoying... but thats it. annoying. the best thing you can do there is say nothing or POLITELY explain to the other coach what advantages you had and why that was a very long shot for him. sitemail would be best if you choose that course. maybe he will learn something and not battle you next time.

P.S. keep in mind this is coming from someone who put more effort into building his own favorite conference than 99% of HD coaches, i am usually a naturally ally of anyone pushing for conference loyalty... that fact that i totally disagree with you here should mean a lot.

4/3/2014 8:28 PM (edited)

jtt8355

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To be fair, he wasn't complaining or ranting in the op. Who cares what he said in the coaches' corner when he comes here looking for direction, advice, etc.

4/3/2014 8:32 PM

emy1013

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Posted by jtt8355 on 4/3/2014 8:32:00 PM (view original):
To be fair, he wasn't complaining or ranting in the op. Who cares what he said in the coaches' corner when he comes here looking for direction, advice, etc.

What he said in his Coaches Corner is relevant here since he mentioned it in his initial post and shows what his mindset was and is as it pertains to this matter.

He's the one that brought up the CC conversation, wasn't one of us who went digging.

4/3/2014 8:42 PM

mrg1037

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I think there's a big difference between battling and poaching. Battling is when two schools both get on a player fairly early in recruiting (let's say the first 24 hours). Poaching is when School A is the only one recruiting a player until the signings cycle, then School B jumps in at the last second.

I have no problems with a conference mate battling me. But, it does suck to get poached right as a bunch of your potential replacements just got signed by weaker schools or sims.

4/3/2014 9:24 PM

tooslim

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Wow--looks like I opened up a hornet's nest. Thanks for all the well thought out opinions. I do look at it a little differently now.

4/3/2014 10:12 PM

dacj501

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Posted by mrg1037 on 4/3/2014 9:24:00 PM (view original):
I think there's a big difference between battling and poaching. Battling is when two schools both get on a player fairly early in recruiting (let's say the first 24 hours). Poaching is when School A is the only one recruiting a player until the signings cycle, then School B jumps in at the last second.

I have no problems with a conference mate battling me. But, it does suck to get poached right as a bunch of your potential replacements just got signed by weaker schools or sims.

there is nothing wrong with either.

4/3/2014 10:15 PM

paleriders

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Posted by stinenavy on 4/3/2014 7:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by paleriders on 4/3/2014 5:11:00 PM (view original):
I get it Tarv. Your experience is not my experience. I can't speak to D2 or D3, been too long. But, I know I never had to fight a conf mate for a recruit. Ever. I've never actually seen 3 conf mates on one recruit. I do follow my D1 recruiting obsessively and coaches in the better conferences do not fight each other. It happens, but It's rare. Which is the opposite of what I'm reading in this thread.

People can do whatever they want to do within the rules.
These statements regarding D1 recruiting are false, false, false. If you are never in battles in high D1 with conference mates, it's because you're short changing yourself and just taking their scraps.

I've watched every D1 battle in IBA for the last 7 or 8 seasons. It's absolutely true. It happens, but it's rare. And nobody gets short changed. In fact, I wish there were more battles because the C/B prestige schools would actually be able to get better talent.

4/3/2014 10:29 PM

mrg1037

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Posted by dacj501 on 4/3/2014 10:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mrg1037 on 4/3/2014 9:24:00 PM (view original):
I think there's a big difference between battling and poaching. Battling is when two schools both get on a player fairly early in recruiting (let's say the first 24 hours). Poaching is when School A is the only one recruiting a player until the signings cycle, then School B jumps in at the last second.

I have no problems with a conference mate battling me. But, it does suck to get poached right as a bunch of your potential replacements just got signed by weaker schools or sims.
there is nothing wrong with either.

You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I won't poach a conference mate unless he's done it to me in the past, and in my 25 or so seasons there is only one guy who's done that (multiple times actually). I'm sure it becomes more common as you move up the levels.

4/3/2014 10:30 PM

davefilby

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Posted by tooslim on 4/3/2014 11:24:00 AM (view original):
I've been playing this for about 3\4 of a year and would like to get the opinion of veteran coaches on a subject on
jumping\poaching of recruits by fellow conference members.

Recently in one of my D2 leagues 2 different coaches in my conference jumped in on recruits that were considering
me and me only for a couple of cycles. Obviously it hurt my team and my recruiting season.
Most of the leagues I am in--especially the D3 leagues--there is no inter-conference jumping\poaching of recruits.
It has either been spoken or assumed that there isn't enough money in recruiting in D3 to be able to afford to battle
fellow conference members and it seriously hurts the conference when it happens. Obviously sometimes two teams in
the same conference get on a recruit on the same cycle and in that instance it is every man for himself.
I mentioned (OK--vigorously complained--lol) to the other people in my D2 conference that it wasn't in the best interest for us to be unnecessarily
fighting each other and it fell on deaf ears. Especially since we are not a strong conference usually ranked 6th or 7th in that D2 World.

To me in D3 it should never happen, period.
In D2--I guess I can understand the case that it could happen--but still don't agree with it.
In D1--I haven't played in it, but can definitely see that in the power conferences it is going to happen and would be expected, but in the lower level conferences it probably shouldn't happen.

So what do you veteran coaches think?

I have to add my two cents. I was involved in a third battle with the poster, although I was not either of the conference coaches mentioned (I'm out of conference).

Be careful what you post on your coaches corner during recruiting. We showed up on the same recruit, same cycle, the day AFTER the original jumping/poaching comment went up. Showing up on the same cycle, that's just bad luck for both of us. I would've done the research on assessing your situation, but the passion of the comment added a little extra insight. Either:

1. You'd spent money defending those players.
2. People have different philosophies on battling. Although it was directed at your conference mates, I thought maybe you subscribed to the school of thought that battling doesn't make sense when similar players are available without battle.

Or some combination of the two. I wasn't sure I had a tactical advantage, but I thought you might respond to a strong move. So I pushed my chips in and went after him from 1200 miles away. Beware of what you post on your CC. Other conferences can read it too.

I may not recall exactly, but I though you should've had a prestige and scholly advantage in both of the conference battles, and I don't think distance was a major issue. I would've stuck it to them and given notice of the new kid on the block.

But I have to agree with some of the other posters, all's fair in war & recruiting. I had 6 schollies, A+ prestige, and nice post-season cash. I was actually considering getting in a battle as a strategy. I recruit differently with 6 spots versus 1 or 2 spots, and many coaches will look around at their competition's resources before the poker game of recruiting starts. Some seasons I go early, some I sit back and wait for the action to unfold around me.

It's Texas Hold'em poker. If you get a reputation of always calling a bet or folding, the other people will take your chips in a heartbeat.

4/3/2014 11:24 PM (edited)

caesari

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Posted by mrg1037 on 4/3/2014 10:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dacj501 on 4/3/2014 10:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mrg1037 on 4/3/2014 9:24:00 PM (view original):
I think there's a big difference between battling and poaching. Battling is when two schools both get on a player fairly early in recruiting (let's say the first 24 hours). Poaching is when School A is the only one recruiting a player until the signings cycle, then School B jumps in at the last second.

I have no problems with a conference mate battling me. But, it does suck to get poached right as a bunch of your potential replacements just got signed by weaker schools or sims.
there is nothing wrong with either.
You're entitled to your opinion. Personally I won't poach a conference mate unless he's done it to me in the past, and in my 25 or so seasons there is only one guy who's done that (multiple times actually). I'm sure it becomes more common as you move up the levels.

I think by saying "nothing is wrong with either" he simply means that both are allowed. Poaching is always a sore subject with people, and some people utilize it, some don't, but just because you don't utilize a completely fair method of recruiting doesn't mean everyone has to play by those self imposed standards.

I hope I'm not putting words in dac's mouth, but this is my interpretation.

4/4/2014 12:15 AM

dacj501

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that works for me.

4/4/2014 6:45 AM

jtt8355

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Posted by emy1013 on 4/3/2014 8:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jtt8355 on 4/3/2014 8:32:00 PM (view original):
To be fair, he wasn't complaining or ranting in the op. Who cares what he said in the coaches' corner when he comes here looking for direction, advice, etc.
What he said in his Coaches Corner is relevant here since he mentioned it in his initial post and shows what his mindset was and is as it pertains to this matter.

He's the one that brought up the CC conversation, wasn't one of us who went digging.

he brought up the cc conversation to point out why he was asking for independent third party opinions. nothing he said in this forum was aggressive or otherwise in any way deserving of the hyper-critical responses that have become so common in the forums.

4/4/2014 9:45 AM

killbatman

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Recruiting is like traffic, it works better if we can all get along while still maximizing what we want. If someone cuts me off in a particularly inconsiderate way in traffic, I'll probably just complain to myself for a minute and then forget about it. If the same car is regularly doing that to me, I'll probably start thinking about ramming the **** out of that car.

4/4/2014 10:23 AM

dacj501

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If the same car is regularly doing that to me, I'll probably start thinking about ramming the **** out of that car.

Of course, you might think about it but would never do it, since its self-destructive and illegal. If everyone abides by that in recruiting too, everything is great. If you (the general "you" not any specific poster) continually find yourself losing recruits late (especially to that same coach) I'd take that as a sign that a. you are targeting good players in recruiting, so good job! and b. you aren't doing a very good job landing and protecting them, so something to improve upon...

4/4/2014 10:28 AM

killbatman

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It was mostly a joke of course, but the serious part of that is referencing the idea some have mentioned that not "poaching" others is like a courtesy that's being extended.

I think "impolite" is a good word for poaching the way mrg defined it. It's not really wrong, certainly not against the rules, but it is does bother me the rare times it happens. I won't actually target that school or anything, but I'll treat them like a sim team in terms of courtesy and willingness to battle them.

4/4/2014 10:37 AM

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