Recruiting Question - Page 12 - Hoops Dynasty

Posts: 523 (0)

Hall of Famer

94 26 19

Rookie

I've spent $5k+ at D3 trying to pull down a D2 guy with no progress made at all.

Can you translate that to SVs? $5k could mean lots of different things depending on the distance.?

I agree about the uncertainty being a good thing. I've done pulldowns enough that I have fairly concrete ideas about what to expect, and that definitely gives me an advantage over people without that knowledge. Not sure what's unfair about that at all. I freely share that information anyway, if people care to listen.

4/25/2014 10:58 AM

Trentonjoe

Posts: 10988 (0)

Hall of Famer

391 592 54 1

Hall of Famer

Have you ever pulled down a D1 guy that was more than 20 miles away Mr. Batman? I try every now and then on my NYU team because there are a lot of options but I have found :

You need to have A+ prestige
He needs to be close (20 miles??)
He can't be ranked
An OVR of 495 (or lesx)

4/25/2014 11:02 AM

killbatman

Posts: 523 (0)

Hall of Famer

94 26 19

Rookie

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 10:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by killbatman on 4/25/2014 9:49:00 AM (view original):

for what its worth, ive heard this theory several times, that the pulldown point is different from the considering point. with undecided recruits, i don't believe thats true, i've tried too many incremental 1-2SV/1HV cycles to buy that (then again, it could have changed, this is years ago). minimally, i think that gap is very small. for players already considering a school, i absolutely think killbatman is right, you are able to recruit a player straight away before the considering point (assuming the other school has a lot of effort in). however, i also think killbatman's comments, which i believe are generally the most accurate and insightful in this thread, omit an occurrence which i do believe exists - where multiple people try to pull a recruit down, the recruit considers nobody, yet both coaches have sent upwards of 20 SVs and try HVs and they still do not work. its been so long its hard to say for sure, but im almost positive i experienced this myself, after being suspicious of a number of reports on the forums. i think what makes the finer points of pulldowns so complex are these two caveats - but i think they are in fact two distinct caveats, not just one - where players already considering someone, and players being pulled down by 2 schools simultaneously, behave differently than "normal" pulldowns. they seem to take more effort to pull down, despite considering no one. i also think for schools already considering someone, the "pulldown point" can be (but isn't always) different than the regular pulldown point, but i'm not sure about that.

Attempting to get back on track, I wanted to respond to something in this paragraph. I bolded the sentence above.

I freely admit this might exist and I haven't really seen it personally, but this does NOT match my experience. I can remember a fair number of times, as a D3 school, where myself and another coach pulled down a player at the same time and both showed up. Comparing notes afterwards, we both used the same 10SV+offer. I can remember a few where it was 13SV vs 10SV and both still showed up at the same time. I've read the 'escalating with 2 teams' scenario on the forums before, but just haven't seen that myself.
you might be right, there is at least something fishy going on as to sometimes needing way more SVs. what the root cause is, really, i am not sure of that.

No doubt there are "fishy" things that happen sometimes that don't make sense to me. That's part of what makes this stuff tricky to pin down.

Maybe I should start a thread and ask for people to post details whenever they encounter one of these 'needed way more SVs' scenarios..we could at least make guesses about what was happening.

4/25/2014 11:03 AM

guyo26

Posts: 401 (0)

Hall of Famer

409 1

Rookie

Again, rusty with specifics, but it was definitely 40+ SV's. He never would accept a HV, which I tried to sprinkle in after certain groups of SVs. Never got considered, and IIRC eventually a D2 signed him last day or he might have gone JUCO eventually. But I didn't see another D3 coach get him.

this was a C+ range D3 school for what it's worth. Eventually decided that I couldn't keep throwing good money after bad.

4/25/2014 11:03 AM

gillispie1

Posts: 5030 (0)

Hall of Famer

95

Veteran

what about d1 pulldowns? those are very rarely talked about, because you basically have no chance of signing those guys even if you pull them down, unless they are awful, in which case, whats the point? that said, i have almost no idea how to pull someone down in d1. i had done it before years ago but in the new engine i tried twice with 50 scouting trips and got nowhere. i can't remember if i took it further, but i doubt it. any successful d1 to d1 pulldown stories to share? any illuminating failure stories?

4/25/2014 11:04 AM

killbatman

Posts: 523 (0)

Hall of Famer

94 26 19

Rookie

Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/25/2014 11:02:00 AM (view original):
Have you ever pulled down a D1 guy that was more than 20 miles away Mr. Batman? I try every now and then on my NYU team because there are a lot of options but I have found :

You need to have A+ prestige
He needs to be close (20 miles??)
He can't be ranked
An OVR of 495 (or lesx)

I can counter a few of those. I recently received a D1 backup with an A prestige D3. I didn't pursue him, but I believe I could have. I previously thought the same as you about A+, but it seems at least A is possible.

I have tried LOTS and never received a backup from a ranked FR at D3. I have signed transfers (and JUCOs maybe?) that were former ranked FR. If it is possible to sign a ranked FR, it's a very low probability event.

My OVR guideline for those D1 FR is about 510. I've signed a handful in the low 500s (that were not ranked).

The distance one I can't answer for sure. I'm 99% sure it has to be 70 miles or less. I really haven't tracked more specifically than that, but anecdotally it does seem most are 10 or 20 miles away. I'll try to pay closer attention to that in the future and see if I can sign someone between 30-70 miles.

4/25/2014 11:14 AM (edited)

asher413

Posts: 609 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 9 2 25 248 23 67 4

Rookie

A few notes that I'm sure will be picked apart:

#1: If you have more than six scholarships, you only get money for six, so it's mathematically difficult to fill 10 slots with quality players, unless you find cheap options. Pull downs is not one of those.

#2: In general, unless you're getting one of the elite DI players, freshmen will not be able to compete their first year on the court. Therefore, you won't be able to find recruits good enough to compete with 9 freshman in a season.

#3: HD is a game, it's not really college basketball. If it was, we'd have to wait until the fall to do anything with our players, we'd be making sure their tutors were 'helping' them on their finals right now, and getting ready to stay in hotels to watch players for the next 3 months. Many of the mechanics in HD (recruiting included) are designed for fun, not to match the real world. But, the HD recruiting system is pretty fair- the rules apply to each coach equally, and the recruit generation is random.

#4: I'll repeat what I said earlier- Pull downs are difficult. They cost a lot of money, and as others have pointed out, if you're pulling a guy down, that means every school with a higher prestige than you can pull them down for less money, and some don't even need to pull him down.

#5: You can get knocked off a recruit (and I consider it a valid strategy), by someone placing significnatly more effort than you. This means you have to spend more money just to get the "considering bonus" (99% sure that's in a Dev Chat if you want to look up details)

#6: Please don't compare Seble and Tarek. Two different beasts, one was working more freely, the other under the Fox umbrella.

4/25/2014 11:11 AM

gillispie1

Posts: 5030 (0)

Hall of Famer

95

Veteran

also, now that its morning and my brain is (half) functioning again, i do remember distinctly in d2 trying to pull a guy down, multiple cycles of 5 SVs after the original 10, eventually waited 1-2 after like 25 figuring i was banging my head against a wall, nothing, did 5-10 more, and then showed up. another coached posted on the CC about trying to pull him down and failing, and eventually he gave up (or decided to wait), i can't remember which. its possible that is a red herring, that really it was just a coincidence that whatever made this guy take more SVs, just happened to exist with a guy we both went for. it kind of has theoretical basis though, the way admins talk about pulldowns and dropdowns its like, if they have other interest it may be harder, no interest it may be easier, unless i am just making that up. we can always ask, its remarkable what you can get answers to via tickets these days, stuff you'd never in a million years get answered in my hay day. anyway, may as well take advantage.

im not sure precisely what we'd want to ask, though? seble says personality is gone but i think there is at least some personality like attribute, i mean we know there is with respect to how it affects considering points and who they will let recruit them immediately and what not, that is not simply derived from ratings. he might mean those other 10 personalities are gone but not the self-worth personality or whatever. i wonder if its possible that self-worth value plays into the way a guy is actually pulled down, with sometimes multiple people recruiting a player, or a high division school already being on a player, seeming to make it harder, and others, not. it may just be most of those, the guy was really ready to be recruited and the coach just didn't know, as killbatman suggests (there is no indication from the player, that much we know). or maybe its something about that player? anyway i guess what we could ask seble is something like, when pulling players down, is it possible that other schools showing interest in the other player can affect how much effort it takes to pull down that player? i don't think that covers all bases, but its a start.

4/25/2014 11:16 AM (edited)

killbatman

Posts: 523 (0)

Hall of Famer

94 26 19

Rookie

I could believe that player 'personalities' might result in different reactions to multiple teams pulling them down.

4/25/2014 11:16 AM

guyo26

Posts: 401 (0)

Hall of Famer

409 1

Rookie

Interesting, I'm new so personality is just something referenced in the old docs, but I sort of think that might make sense to an extent. And my assumption was there was another coach trying to pulldown at the same time, we never know it could be 3 or 6 other coaches trying at the same time.

I've wondered about the D1 to D3 type before, but have never had an A+ and guy within 20 miles that I tried with.

4/25/2014 11:17 AM

killbatman

Posts: 523 (0)

Hall of Famer

94 26 19

Rookie

Posted by guyo26 on 4/25/2014 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Again, rusty with specifics, but it was definitely 40+ SV's. He never would accept a HV, which I tried to sprinkle in after certain groups of SVs. Never got considered, and IIRC eventually a D2 signed him last day or he might have gone JUCO eventually. But I didn't see another D3 coach get him.

this was a C+ range D3 school for what it's worth. Eventually decided that I couldn't keep throwing good money after bad.

Just to confirm, this was an undecided player? And you received a backup message from him, right? Just trying to eliminate some possibilities.

4/25/2014 11:19 AM

killbatman

Posts: 523 (0)

Hall of Famer

94 26 19

Rookie

Pulling D1 down to D3 is highly dependent on geography. In some locations, you will practically never have any options for that. For my D3 school in RI, I routinely send 5-10 calls to local D1s and get a few backups.

4/25/2014 11:20 AM

guyo26

Posts: 401 (0)

Hall of Famer

409 1

Rookie

Posted by killbatman on 4/25/2014 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Posted by guyo26 on 4/25/2014 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Again, rusty with specifics, but it was definitely 40+ SV's. He never would accept a HV, which I tried to sprinkle in after certain groups of SVs. Never got considered, and IIRC eventually a D2 signed him last day or he might have gone JUCO eventually. But I didn't see another D3 coach get him.

this was a C+ range D3 school for what it's worth. Eventually decided that I couldn't keep throwing good money after bad.

Just to confirm, this was an undecided player? And you received a backup message from him, right? Just trying to eliminate some possibilities.

Yup, undecided, got a backup message when I called his coach. While I was dumping SVs into him nobody showed up on his considering list. I used to be super documentarian and save everything about recruits and players, but I don't have that particular stuff.

At the end of the day, I just decided the money wasn't worth it to keep trying to pull him down. I've pulled lots of players down before, with the exact info that's in this thread and elsewhere here on the forums. but I agree with billyg, you certainly don't ever need to pulldown players to be a competitive coach.

4/25/2014 11:23 AM

killbatman

Posts: 523 (0)

Hall of Famer

94 26 19

Rookie

Well I can't be sure without all the details, but I can't really explain it based on what you've said.

One thought..I saw it mentioned at some point in this thread. There was/is a bug where sometimes players showing on the D3 search (for a D3 school), who should be 'recruitable', were rejecting HVs like a D2 player would. It's possible that bug extends up to pulldowns as well. Maybe sometimes guys who should be 'pullable' are not responding how they should in a very small % of cases. Just a theory that might explain it.

4/25/2014 11:50 AM

gillispie1

Posts: 5030 (0)

Hall of Famer

95

Veteran

Posted by killbatman on 4/25/2014 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Well I can't be sure without all the details, but I can't really explain it based on what you've said.

One thought..I saw it mentioned at some point in this thread. There was/is a bug where sometimes players showing on the D3 search (for a D3 school), who should be 'recruitable', were rejecting HVs like a D2 player would. It's possible that bug extends up to pulldowns as well. Maybe sometimes guys who should be 'pullable' are not responding how they should in a very small % of cases. Just a theory that might explain it.

you know, i had typed something almost identical, about 45m ago, but stopped. the reason is, the (say for a d3 school), the d3 players who aren't recruited, supposedly, the phone call is still correct. supposedly its always correct, although i sort of feel like we had an exception here that shattered my reality of recruiting so i just blocked it from my memory... well, thats half the reason.

anyway i think the thing about the pulldowns, if they NEVER started considering you, then i would think it was a bug, but they do start considering you eventually. those d3 guys who are bugged out, they will never start to consider you. so i was thinking i was probably going nowhere with the bug theory, that the pulldown worked with enough effort, so it had to be something else. however, maybe they are not actually possible to pull down but will eventually drop to you? i never thought to check what division the guy showed up in, in my singular experience, i don't know if anyone else has done so, that is the only thing that tells you if a guy is considering you because he dropped to you, or because you pulled him down (i hope readers who are not 100% solid on that raise questions, that is a very important point about the difference in dropdowns and pulldowns that many seem to have a bit confused). in my singular experience, the guy did drop to me the same cycle i did a bunch of stuff, and i know the other school said something like, by the time he dropped, he didn't want to fight me anyway, but i have no idea what the other guys prestige was :( so that's no help. while on the topic, would everyone else agree, doing effort towards a pulldown, without successful completion, has no bearing whatsoever on the drop time? as in, you can't do half the effort and get the guy to drop say 4 cycles sooner? i am pretty confident on that but it never ceases to amaze me when seble "rewrote" the engine, how many of the hard-and-trues stopped being hard and true :( i never got over the one where if the 150sg would talk to you but not the 149sg (all 70 mile players exempted), the 148 and up would 100% never talk to you and the 151 and down would 100% always talk to you. that made it so much easier, it saved a huge amount of incessant phone calls. thats partly why i just stick to d1, but this d2/d3 stuff still really intrigues me, in theory at least :)

4/25/2014 12:15 PM (edited)

Forums

Recruiting Question Topic

Search Criteria