the gradual introduction would allow for isolating the variables.  if we change scouting, eliminate post season cash, get rid of drop downs and pull downs, etc. etc. so much is going on at once that it will be hard to determine what had the biggest impact.

for instance, just eliminating post season cash may have several unintended results that we don't predict.  After a few seasons those will become clear.  but if we do 5-6 things at once - we really can't truly know what caused what. we may think we know, but it's not very scientific and leaves much speculation.

I don't think it needs to be a slow turtle like pace, but in a beta world it could be done in measured fashion.  Gillispie correctly points out that each change in the past has always expected a certain result, only to find several other issues.

Posted by the0nlyis on 9/18/2015 2:29:00 PM (view original):
Can someone explain the point of gradually introducing the changes?  Would the beta only be for a few things at a time as well so we would have multiple beta's?

Doesn't it seem like it would actually take longer to get things understood completely if we just kept adding things slowly.  I mean does everything really seem so complicated to the point we aren't smart enough as a group to figure things out with a beta and then a few seasons in real worlds?

What exactly is so big that we need to slowly implement?

The biggest thing is recruiting and scouting, where the knowledge and how we actually gather it is changing(but we know exactly what we are still looking for).  Recruit preferences we should find out how they work within a few seasons in the beta.  Then fixing the timeline with EE's and coach transfers.

I'm mean it just seems like we are all thinking it is so big that we can't handle it...

I would garentee within 20 seasons we would have a full working knowledge of the current proposed changes.

I wasn't around for the previous engine overhaul, but coaches who were around said AFTER extensive beta testing it took about 9 months before all the bugs were worked out.  Lots of coaches left because at that point the paying customers were essentially doing the beta testing.

A couple years ago the same thing happened with GD and another mass exodus happened.  

My best guess is they want to make sure the beta testing goes much better this time around before rolling it out to the masses.

As far as "what's so big..."...I mean, it's a complete recruiting engine overhaul.  They're tearing it down and rebuilding it from scratch.  That seems pretty big.

Posted by the0nlyis on 9/18/2015 2:29:00 PM (view original):
Can someone explain the point of gradually introducing the changes?  Would the beta only be for a few things at a time as well so we would have multiple beta's?

Doesn't it seem like it would actually take longer to get things understood completely if we just kept adding things slowly.  I mean does everything really seem so complicated to the point we aren't smart enough as a group to figure things out with a beta and then a few seasons in real worlds?

What exactly is so big that we need to slowly implement?

The biggest thing is recruiting and scouting, where the knowledge and how we actually gather it is changing(but we know exactly what we are still looking for).  Recruit preferences we should find out how they work within a few seasons in the beta.  Then fixing the timeline with EE's and coach transfers.

I'm mean it just seems like we are all thinking it is so big that we can't handle it...

I would garentee within 20 seasons we would have a full working knowledge of the current proposed changes.

there are several reasons for this. i am really pushing for a paring down of the scope, and at a minimum, for the things i want pared down, to go into a separate release. my theory is after a great deal of change goes through, we'll be better positioned to argue against the bad changes that im trying to get moved into a separate release.

ill just come clean here. here is my over-arching strategy here. i have recognized the FACT that seble will not settle for tweaks. this was obvious to me before any of this began, its obviously his intent and he won't be swayed on that. we have to accept some major change is coming. in that context, we have to weed out the "good" change from the "bad" and push for the better parts to form the bulk of the release. i just don't see another way around it. additionally... if all of this goes into one release, the combined negative reactions to the various implementations, will be so severe, it will drown out all other conversation. that is not healthy and not productive. simply breaking massive change into chunks makes it more palatable to the users. at a minimum, we have to achieve that. but really, i want more -

to me, the scouting and recruiting stuff... i mean lets be honest, its massive. it could be a complete nightmare. but there is also a real chance a lot of it is good. there are so many huge changes in there... hiding ratings... removing distance as a factor... not seeing who is recruiting whom... the list goes on. i can stomach some of that, it addresses specific pain points. the problem i have is with a few things. first, the bonus money change - its misguided and its going to **** off a lot of people - and its absolutely trivial (i expect) to roll that out sooner or later than the rest, preferably, with reasonably modifications. why bundle into the mega release?

the real big one i am aiming for is the schedule. seble is trying to move 2 things into the season - scouting, and 1/2 recruiting sessions. the 2 recruiting sessions in and of itself has major problems, its going to be REALLY hard to not make that a nightmare for everyone. i am strongly opposed to 2 sessions. but i am also strongly opposed to any recruiting before EEs or job changes, for obvious reasons. so, he needs to move the scouting stuff he invents tothe season, let people tinker and all, or just do it all at teh start of recruiting. this appeals to both groups - those who want more in season and those who adamantly do not. you can still get all the benefits of all the other recruiting and scouting crap he has proposed, much of it interesting and potentially fruitful. but you just hit so many deal killer type problems on that schedule change. i just don't see it.

the third is dropdowns/pulldowns. hes backed off steadily, from, its not going to be the same, to, its kind of going to be close but still not much detail. dropdowns/pulldowns are well liked and frankly the last part of recruiting he needs to be mucking around with. enough is enough, its not needed, hes not solving pain points, and its already a massive release without changing the way either dropdowns or pulldowns work.

the last thing ill say is this. most of the adjustments to this game have been initial flops. the successful ones mostly require a botched initial release and a compensation to adjust for the key points of miscalculations. if seble changes 2 big things, maybe he will have time to adjust those 2 after the release. if he adjusts 10, no way he has time to adjust them all - unless the focus on HD from now on is absolutely nothing like, not even the slightest resemblence to, the way HD has been focused on. so ideally, strip some of the BS with problems, focus on the core. at least, move it into multiple releases so maybe there's a chance its not a crisis and maybe we have a chance to talk him out of some of the bad stuff. thats without even getting into recruiting and scouting - which are so huge its hard to even talk about them constructively, as there is so much change going on. i like a lot of it but obviously there are points of contention and potential issues, depending on how its implemented. we need to get to the point where we can drill down into the changes hes making, but thats hard when hes changing so much that it touches literally every aspect of recruiting everywhere.

Okay makes more sense with the ability to isolate how things work.   Thanks for clearing that up for me.  But that would only say be for the beta?  So things would be gradually introduced for the beta and not real HD, or both the beta and real HD?

Posted by the0nlyis on 9/18/2015 3:12:00 PM (view original):
Okay makes more sense with the ability to isolate how things work.   Thanks for clearing that up for me.  But that would only say be for the beta?  So things would be gradually introduced for the beta and not real HD, or both the beta and real HD?

well, it depends on approach. if he pares down the fringe stuff, the ripple effect type stuff, maybe he can do it in one update. thats still one massive update though. i would really like him to update scouting first, recruiting second, in 2 batches, so we can digest them individually. that would be both beta and production release. i don't know if its really necessary to split like that, but i want this update to be successful - i really hope seble will sees im coming from a place of fighting for the success of his update - and i think the best chance is to chunk it out along lines that don't make it WAY more work to do it piecemeal. i'm not sure exactly what those lines are, some are obvious, like the bonus money tweak. im really looking for seble to engage us in how he can work with us to bring the scope under control, so we can try to find a middle ground solution, that still changes a lot, but does it in a controlled manor.

I'm somewhat coming around to the change as a big picture concept, even if my ideas on how to fix things would be quite a bit different.  In no particular order:

1 - It seems Seble mentioned that in order to make changes (to recruiting), the code needs to be re-written.  He said the same thing about the engine.  The engine rewrite and subsequent use has been a big success, so there is some hope for optimism.

2 - I think both Seble and the vets who worked thru the recruit gen / FSS change will admit that was a disaster, in the way all sides communicated things, as well as for the huge loss of coaches as result.  I don't think anyone wants to go thru that again, it seems Seble is taking a much more proactive approach this time.  I hope vets coaches can also be open minded.

3 - Recruiting needs to change at some point, to have the recruits spread out more.  The whole star recruit concept has been a disaster, this game 'plays' nicer and better with a larger group of more equal recruits rather than a few really good ones.  This more equal recruit approach makes the game more about coach planning, and less about JUST recruiting.  Recruiting still is most important, but with more equal top end recruits, recruiting is less important and more coaches can compete for titles.  Taking away conf money will help this, but spreading the players out thereby having the teams be more equal is the key.

4 - The time worry about the new game boils down to how quickly will the coach A and the recruit A and the competing coach B (and C,D. E and F) realize that recruit A is going to go to Coach A, and then how quickly and easily and within his resources can Coach's B thru F  find a nearly as good a recruit as the one they just lost , and so on times the number of human coaches in each world.  Right now, I often find this match in a couple of minutes.  I don't see how this match will now be found in less than a couple of hours under the new proposal, and will span on for days.  I myself don't have much interest in that sort of process, but I understand how some might.

5 -  If  the total time to play a season is not significantly different and if recruits get spread out more evenly and the teams are fairer, the rest of the change I'm indifferent towards, assuming the rest of the changes are not a disaster - which I don't think they will be.

6 - I think some of the problems this game has could be fixed with some simple solutions, I have several favorites, but I've read others that I might not agree with that might work too.  One of the easiest would be to increase the threshold dist from 200/360 to something bigger.  But, what the heck, whatever is implemented probably will work better than what we have, so if Seble has thought thru the best way to proceed, so be it, it's his nickel afterall.

7 - I like several of the off season proposed ideas vs real world recruiting, which I'm somewhat familiar with.  But ... and this is just me as a game player ... I have to admit, I'm here to SIM games.  So recruit camps and such off season things are not my cup of tea.  I'd kill for more layers and texture to game planning and such instead of in the recruiting process.  Or some really cool advanced stats, which would be easy to do.  I know of near a dozen that many colleges use that could be easily added to this game.  But then again, I'd be quite content with every human getting identical teams, with identical potential, and then seeing who really can coach the best - LOL.  I view recruiting as a necessary evil to get to the real part of the game.

8 - Most the vets know this, but in fairness, for those who made it this far and don't, this is an alias account for Oldresorter, so I have logged a fair number of seasons at this game, and have played 11 teams for almost ten years - might even be 12 or 13 years.  Again, I'm more optimistic than I was a week ago based on what seble is saying, and as long as the total time to play a season is not substantially increased and as long as the teams become more equal, I'll be good with the overhaul of the game.  Fingers crossed.

The problem seems to be though, that as you said, he's got his mind absolutely set on a massive change and not just some tweaking here and there, so why would he listen to any of us in the first place?  If you read the dev chat (and I know you did), his tone was noted as being very dictatorial.  I happen to agree.  Now I suppose one could argue that he IS like a dictator since ultimately his word is the only one that REALLY matters.  But if and when people start speaking with their wallets, will it be too late by then for constructive back and forth, with acceptance of ideas from those who actually know and play the game or will it simply revert back to the "my way or the highway" approach?  Maybe it's a pride thing, I don't know, but it's painfully obvious that some of the users here are far, FAR more tuned into the nuances of the game than the developers but the developers don't seem to be willing or able to accept that fact.

Hey man, I've got a decade's worth of enjoyment out of the game.  If it's time to move on to something else, I'll know it.  But I really like this game and I don't want to see it screwed up.  It was really fine as it was, minus the recruit generation problems in high D1/mid major territory.  Fix THOSE problems and you've got yourself quite a nice game.  THOSE changes are far more important than revising scouting and "hoping" that diamonds in the rough fall through the cracks.  Don't put a band-aid on the problem and hope, just FIX THE PROBLEM.

Posted by ryan75 on 9/18/2015 3:38:00 PM (view original):
I'm somewhat coming around to the change as a big picture concept, even if my ideas on how to fix things would be quite a bit different.  In no particular order:

1 - It seems Seble mentioned that in order to make changes (to recruiting), the code needs to be re-written.  He said the same thing about the engine.  The engine rewrite and subsequent use has been a big success, so there is some hope for optimism.

2 - I think both Seble and the vets who worked thru the recruit gen / FSS change will admit that was a disaster, in the way all sides communicated things, as well as for the huge loss of coaches as result.  I don't think anyone wants to go thru that again, it seems Seble is taking a much more proactive approach this time.  I hope vets coaches can also be open minded.

3 - Recruiting needs to change at some point, to have the recruits spread out more.  The whole star recruit concept has been a disaster, this game 'plays' nicer and better with a larger group of more equal recruits rather than a few really good ones.  This more equal recruit approach makes the game more about coach planning, and less about JUST recruiting.  Recruiting still is most important, but with more equal top end recruits, recruiting is less important and more coaches can compete for titles.  Taking away conf money will help this, but spreading the players out thereby having the teams be more equal is the key.

4 - The time worry about the new game boils down to how quickly will the coach A and the recruit A and the competing coach B (and C,D. E and F) realize that recruit A is going to go to Coach A, and then how quickly and easily and within his resources can Coach's B thru F  find a nearly as good a recruit as the one they just lost , and so on times the number of human coaches in each world.  Right now, I often find this match in a couple of minutes.  I don't see how this match will now be found in less than a couple of hours under the new proposal, and will span on for days.  I myself don't have much interest in that sort of process, but I understand how some might.

5 -  If  the total time to play a season is not significantly different and if recruits get spread out more evenly and the teams are fairer, the rest of the change I'm indifferent towards, assuming the rest of the changes are not a disaster - which I don't think they will be.

6 - I think some of the problems this game has could be fixed with some simple solutions, I have several favorites, but I've read others that I might not agree with that might work too.  One of the easiest would be to increase the threshold dist from 200/360 to something bigger.  But, what the heck, whatever is implemented probably will work better than what we have, so if Seble has thought thru the best way to proceed, so be it, it's his nickel afterall.

7 - I like several of the off season proposed ideas vs real world recruiting, which I'm somewhat familiar with.  But ... and this is just me as a game player ... I have to admit, I'm here to SIM games.  So recruit camps and such off season things are not my cup of tea.  I'd kill for more layers and texture to game planning and such instead of in the recruiting process.  Or some really cool advanced stats, which would be easy to do.  I know of near a dozen that many colleges use that could be easily added to this game.  But then again, I'd be quite content with every human getting identical teams, with identical potential, and then seeing who really can coach the best - LOL.  I view recruiting as a necessary evil to get to the real part of the game.

8 - Most the vets know this, but in fairness, for those who made it this far and don't, this is an alias account for Oldresorter, so I have logged a fair number of seasons at this game, and have played 11 teams for almost ten years - might even be 12 or 13 years.  Again, I'm more optimistic than I was a week ago based on what seble is saying, and as long as the total time to play a season is not substantially increased and as long as the teams become more equal, I'll be good with the overhaul of the game.  Fingers crossed.

Very fair points OR.  Glad to see you're keeping up with what's going on, everyone here should really value your opinions as they have always ended up being spot-on.

Number four concerns me the most also.  I have quite a few teams and it "feels" to me like I'm going to have to choose a select few to hang onto and let the rest go, simply to make sure I have sufficient time to do what needs to be done and done properly, not half-assed.

Number five is okay as well, although given Wis' track record with major changes and roll outs I'm not holding my breath.  This goes hand-in-hand with number two, which is what I'm most concerned about.

Number seven I agree with 100%, word for word.  Let's just get to the damn games and go.  I'd be all for having teams that began nearly identical with identical potentials, growth, and such.  I'd most certainly try to participate in a world (hell, even a conference) like this, just to see where I "really" stand among the better and best coaches in the game.  I'd like to think I'd be able to hang but until I tried it, who knows?

Again, good to see you voicing some opinions OR.  I've always had very much respect for your opinions and success in regards to the game.  Glad you're still around and active!

glad to hear from you OR. for the record, i am fairly optimistic about much of this. the core changes - the mechanical ones to scouting and recruiting - i am fully ready to give them a chance. the problem to me is taking on more than he can chew - as in your point about recruit gen. that release had a lot of good stuff (as ive laid out in this discussion already - different thread, but we are saying the same thing). the problem was, it was just a bit too big, a bit too far off the pain points he was initially going for, and because it was such a big release, he didn't have time to follow up on all of it. and it was a brutal disaster. that is what i want to avoid. i am trying to be as pro-change as i can realistically be. i really think there is something here to work with. to me, the right course of action is 1) to convince seble to focus on the core and trim some of the fringe stuff - like why spend a TON of effort moving half of recruiting into the season, when you can move all of scouting effortlessly, and don't create the massive problems moving recruiting before jobs and EE causes. why redo dropdowns/pulldowns in the same effort? makes no sense to me. and then 2) to work on his core set of recruiting and scouting changes. i like a lot of what hes offered in 2). there is still so much though, i mean implementation is everything, and i really want to be getting to debating those areas, to give him some insight for when he builds those. for example, scouting level 1 and 2 are so fricken meaningless that i would never in a million years sign a player with level 1 or 2 of scouting. what does he envision? can i still scout a lot of players to level 3/4, so i can do team composition properly? if not, it basically ruins the game. if so, it can add a layer to the game that could potentially be quite enjoyable. or at least, for some folks, without ruining it for others. the idea of abolishing distance completely is another. i do not want to back to the 10 hour pre-recruiting grind of searching for players that existed before FSS. would that happen? i don't know. we should probably talk about what is by itself the biggest change to recruiting in years, more than we have though. its just being overshadowed, which is a problem...

anyway, i really hope we can get past this idea of changing everything under the sun, if it so much as brushes up against what hes trying for now. and then work on the scouting/recruiting stuff which has a lot of good stuff in it, a lot of reason for optimism. those are more fun talks anyway. id rather be doing that, for sure.

"I've logged a fair number of seasons"

understatement of the year lol

Posted by tarvolon on 9/18/2015 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 9/18/2015 12:18:00 PM (view original):
interesting so far. not surprisingly, the initial rush was all negative. the really active guys skew that way. definitely will continue to moderate as a larger sample comes into play. i really am interested to see how it plays out. i am guessing the support for the release in general (q1) is roughly mixed, 40-60%, and that the folks who think its widely viewed negatively will be surprised. i actually think change and seble are more widely supported in this community than many folks think. but, i do think the trend will continue to support the mega update just being too enormous in scope at this time. i suspect if we took the top 10 changes, and polled on support for them individually, as in, their own update, the support for the individual changes here would be much larger than the whole release - which stems from people generally being pro-change here, but that optimism being dampened by the sheer enormity in scope.

I suspect you're right. I'd really love to see a more gradual rollout, but if they're just rewriting things because it's so hard to tweak, that will be difficult. Just hoping that seble will be really willing to tweak based on beta

you make a fair point - however, im sure that is not the case for everything. seble has made statements to me before about recruiting being hard to deal with - its like, the new engine rewrite, didn't cover recruiting, i believe... pretty sure about that. but that doesn't mean its all or nothing, even within recruiting. for example, you can rewrite, make half the changes - maybe thats 75% of the effort - then rollout the other 25%. i am not even trying to get him to do that so much (although i'd like to see scouting apart from recruiting overhauls, i strongly expect to lose that one). but there are some low hanging fruits. the bonus cash is an easy one, no way that is hard to roll out by itself. you can cut d1 bonus money in half by changing 1 declared constant, or if old admin was a *****, and hard coded it 5 places, with some control+F action :) 

really what i want is NOT to see the schedule change, on the recruiting side - only the scouting side - and to not functionally change dropdowns / pulldowns at all. i may be repeating myself a bit but the context here is those are both outside the scope of what we are talking about with the rewrite vs tweak. im not asking him to make a series of tweaks there. im saying, make all your changes related to those things up front, and then leave them the hell alone! besides - once rewritten - the idea is that changes to recruiting could be easy. so he could just not do some stuff, thats different than asking him to tweak areas he is not rewriting, which is really where his point comes into play. i am with him, a few small tweaks, its not worth it, as an alternative to a big set of changes - if the small set of tweaks is just as much work. i mean i might still vote for the tweaks, but hes not going to do it, and i have zero interest in fighting that battle. but that is very different than asking him to hold off on some additional changes, that are going to be extra work, no matter how you slice it.

i would totally get on board with one update, instead of 2, as i initially really wanted... if we just saw a modest reduction in scope...

my worry was my own opinion here would vary too much from the masses. there are over 60 responses and you have something like 5% to 75% would be upset about a reduction in scope vs would welcome in. something along those lines thinks the scope is too small versus too big. that isn't even a debate. its a landslide. sebles strength always has been taking into account community feedback. i can't imagine he will ignore this data, it would be totally out of character. i do know for a fact though, that the guys who want a few small tweaks, have zero chance of getting it. well, outside WIS suddenly pulling seble away again, mid effort, in which case its probably more like we get nothing. but anyway. i hope the guys who are really anti-change here can look at it realistically and accept we've lost that one, and basically get on board with the fact that big changes are coming, and then from there, do what we can to shape the outcome in a way that the changes can be more constructive than destructive. sure, its easier to stand on the side saying, this is going to ruin the game, he should just do 1) 2) 3)... but that is so far from where seble is, he can't directly find a compromise with those folks. hes going to make a lot of change, and its going to be in the scouting and recruiting spaces. lets just do the best we can do get him to pair down moderately, a reasonable compromise, and then really dig into the changes hes proposing, to try to flesh out the design further. its obvious banging the "please don't do this!!" or "you are going to totally destroy the game" drums, even if accurate, aren't going to get us anything. we just need to engage in the process even if we disagree with the premise (which, for the record, i really don't - i mean, i kind of do, im stung by history, but seble has gotten enough right that im ready and willing to genuinely give him another big whack at it)

gillespie (not going to quote because those just get gargantuan): I think if they're going to be rewriting all of the stuff, the scouting and recruiting mechanics need to be done together. The changes are too interrelated to be able to do a good job separating them. Also, because money is already changing dramatically anyways, conference money is necessarily going to have to be rewritten. Now I'm fine with rewriting it in a way that makes it similar to what it is now, but that's just because I don't think that change is necessary at all, and I think I have pretty good reason for thinking so. 

As far as doing this two-stage, I think I actually agree with you on the most important thing to separate: timing. He can rollout the new recruiting/scouting mechanics, make scouting in-season, but leave recruiting in one period after the season. Then, if we want to change to two-stage recruiting (with all of the necessary changes that that involves, some of which I actually think would be pretty cool), run that in a second update. 

Posted by tarvolon on 9/18/2015 5:23:00 PM (view original):
gillespie (not going to quote because those just get gargantuan): I think if they're going to be rewriting all of the stuff, the scouting and recruiting mechanics need to be done together. The changes are too interrelated to be able to do a good job separating them. Also, because money is already changing dramatically anyways, conference money is necessarily going to have to be rewritten. Now I'm fine with rewriting it in a way that makes it similar to what it is now, but that's just because I don't think that change is necessary at all, and I think I have pretty good reason for thinking so. 

As far as doing this two-stage, I think I actually agree with you on the most important thing to separate: timing. He can rollout the new recruiting/scouting mechanics, make scouting in-season, but leave recruiting in one period after the season. Then, if we want to change to two-stage recruiting (with all of the necessary changes that that involves, some of which I actually think would be pretty cool), run that in a second update. 

well... they can roll out the bonus money thing now, and keep an equivalent concept in the new ones. but i see your point. i do believe its a possibility, that it would be possible that recruiting and scouting overhauls could be split - but i certainly dont know for sure (or even close) - and like i said, im basically giving up on that. good points though, thanks for keeping me honest! i wasnt thinking about moeny changing so much in recruiting, but, that is completely changing, you are right. you know, i honestly am still working in the recruiting changes. i didnt wait a week for my first post because i didnt see sebles stuff - i saw it the first day. i read it - was really excited actually - then started reading some questions and his replies, and it was like wow, those are some serious ripple effects... and it was so much. plus, i didn't want to be negative, to negatively influence the creativity or anything, and i can tend to partially dominate some of these conversations which i really did not want to do. i still dont. but i do think i have good insight now into what people support and what they dont, so i will try to cut through the noise a bit to bring it to actionable issues, splitting away the sky is falling stuff and all. right now, there is not majority support for this update - but there can be - and i think that has to be the goal - finding a way for us to find compromises that people by and large can live with. ill continue to try to hold back on some personal opinions though, at least after a couple days when i've had a chance to catch up with everyone else, there are still many stones left untouched!

anyway, the recruiting stuff came out, and i was just trying to start the rest, and it was like, holy crap! hes doing all that TOO!! i was already like wow this is too big. now its so big i still can hardly keep it all together - evidenced by this - i still wasn't thinking regular budgets were not even money driven. i don't know how that impacts my scouting budget / recruiting budget interaction post in your other thread. i think its massively important they remain linked, as they are today, so we still have that great strategic tradeoff, between spending to find great recruits, and spending to win great recruits. i think we need to enhance that, not take away from it. maybe you can convert scouting money to home visits, i dont know. there has to be a way. 

one more thing I just thought of: I have no idea how you could roll out the new scouting stuff and keep pulldowns, because scouting is no longer effort towards getting a player. Pulldowns would have to be rethought entirely if they're going to be brought back. this is the reason I think the mechanics stuff has to happen together, because so much of it is interconnected. 

In think gillespie said it all when he said those guys wanting small tweaks aren't going to get them. It's either the overhaul or nothing.

I can admit when we've've been beaten...probably didn't have any chance after reading through the developers chat and realizing Seble wasn't budging. All or nothing, really. I hope it works out and the game continues to grow. Maybe in the future the developers will be a bit more inclined to listen to and accept feedback.