Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/23/2016 12:41:00 PM (view original):
Oh man.  It's been awhile since bistiza really dug in on a topic and defended his point to the death.  I've missed this.

I wanted to make a few points but before I do so I should disclose I'm a pretty big Peyton fan and absolutely despise Brady and the Patriots.

Manning played with 2 HOF WRs for much of his career (Harrison and Wayne) and had a crazy talented Edgerrin James until 2005.  If you're argument is Harrison and Wayne were only good because of Manning I'll remind you Manning probably throws the worst ball of any QB in the NFL.  If those guys couldn't run routes and create a little separation Manning's wounded ducks would have been in trouble.  That said, no one prepared more than Peyton.  I remember watching a show on him where on gameday he'd throw 10 ins, 10 outs, 10 slants, 10 hooks, etc to his WRs to make sure their timing was on point.  

Brady had Moss for 3 seasons and depending on how healthy Gronk stays Moss will be the only HOF skill position WR Brady EVER played with.  Brady had the far superior offensive line-no argument there.  But Bis, you keep saying Brady had "great" WRs....he had 1, for 3 seasons.  Welker was very good but like Edelman they are both system guys...not elite by any means and won't ever be in the HOF discussion.  Same with Branch, Amendola, Gaffney, Troy Brown, Givens, Caldwell, Terry Glenn, Brandon Lloyd, and Dante Stallworth.  Not exactly the who's who of WR talent in the NFL.

Here's a serious question though-if being a game manager (which is what I believe you're saying Brady is) why don't more game managers win Super Bowls?  In the last 23 seasons there have been 2 mediocre QBs to win a SB (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer).  I'll entertain the idea Brady is the best game manager of all-time but you make it sound being a game manager is so easy and anyone can do it.

Last, you were backwards in your Culpepper analogy.  Moss made Culpepper.  What happened when Randy left and Culpepper had no one to stretch the field?  Look up Culpepper's stats-he was done after Randy left him.  

Here's to hoping Peyton can pull one out tomorrow as nothing would make me happier.

I'm glad to see you've missed it when I've defended a perfectly reasonable (yet often unpopular) opinion.

With all due respect, part of the reason Harrison and Wayne were so good is because they played with Peyton, whose play calling and audible abilities also made it much easier for James to run.

I disagree Manning throws "the worst ball" even now, and when he was younger he was better. I'm not sure where you get this idea of "wounded ducks". Until his injuries (and possible age) got in the way, I never heard anyone question his ability to throw (and with good reason as I never saw any sign of what you're saying here).

Yes, Peyton prepared more (and better) than anyone in history. IMO, he has the highest football IQ of anyone, ever. Having him on the field was like having an extra offensive coordinator with incredible skill right in the huddle and at he line of scrimmage, making decisions on the spot.

Seriously, if you doubt this, you've never seen or heard about how detailed his calls were at the line of scrimmage when he was with the Colts. He'd call everything at the line and change plays at will. Yes, he had great team mates that allowed him to do this, but it's still amazing to think about because NOBODY ELSE has ever done this to this level, now or in the past.

If you have a few minutes and want to learn more, here's an amusing video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH5gwHHjZ7Q

A great coach, system, O-line, and defense made Brady look good early in his career. When Randy Moss arrived, that took it over the top.  The team was already loaded with talent that season, but it was Moss' presence which made undefeated possible. It wasn't just the catches and TDs he got - it was the fact he drew so much attention, even when he never saw the ball come his way.  There is no way to quantify how much that helped the Pats win. Moss was the MVP that year, but it went to Brady.

Moss wasn't the only great receiver Brady had. Welker was practically born to play the Pats system and make Brady look great. Brady's bread and butter is to dump short, high percentage passes off to talented receivers and let them get the yards, and Welker was great at that.

Look at who he has now. Sure, Gronkowski is a great weapon, no doubt, but look at Edelman and Amendola. They're the same type of threat, maybe not quite on Welker's level, but far above average.

You say Welker and Edelman are system guys, but that's EXACTLY what BRADY is - a system guy. He's never had to deal with any more than one team, one coach, one system, taylor-made for him to dink and dunk most of the time. All the receivers you mentioned are above average guys many of whom also came through big in the clutch.

Game managers DO win Super Bowls - if they have great talent around them, and great coaching doesn't hurt. Brady has had great talent around him and great coaching his entire career.

I wasn't backward in my Culpepper analogy. You apparently interpreted it incorrectly, as what you just said above is EXACTLY the point I was making in the first place. Moss MADE Culpepper look great, and he also MADE Brady look great the same way.

Posted by zorzii on 1/23/2016 1:03:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, we all don't cheer for Brady. I mean, I am tired of the Pats dominance. I seriously hope Manning pulls it off. But to be honest, I think its Denver's D that will.

But you can't say Brady is not the most accomplished... since people don't think accomplished means best ever... He has done stuff nobody has done before and he has been on top of the game for 15 years. Now, if you ask scouts, people who know the game, they'll tell you Brady is the fastest to react and his decision making, because he is so fast to throw the ball or to make a decision, his the best in the league.

Manning is a student of the game. Someone with a football IQ that is scary. But does not have Brady's Tools. Last week against Pittsburgh, he got Lucky there were so many injuries.... and that Denver recovered a key fumble. His throwing looked bad...

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14618069

Brady makes great decisions - when he's not being hit.

Yeah, sure, pretty much ALL QBs get worse when they face pressure - Brady is MUCH worse.

This is from a few years ago, but it gives some analysis to QB play under pressure, and it is most noteworthy that Brady is NOT even listed among "best QBs facing pressure".  (Manning is third behind a dominant Aaron Rodgers and close to second place Russell Wilson, with fourth place distant behind Manning.)

Here are the details - https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/29/examining-pressure-qb-play/

It would appear Brady's tools are phenomenal coaches, a great O-line, and talented receivers.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/23/2016 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/23/2016 12:41:00 PM (view original):
Oh man.  It's been awhile since bistiza really dug in on a topic and defended his point to the death.  I've missed this.

I wanted to make a few points but before I do so I should disclose I'm a pretty big Peyton fan and absolutely despise Brady and the Patriots.

Manning played with 2 HOF WRs for much of his career (Harrison and Wayne) and had a crazy talented Edgerrin James until 2005.  If you're argument is Harrison and Wayne were only good because of Manning I'll remind you Manning probably throws the worst ball of any QB in the NFL.  If those guys couldn't run routes and create a little separation Manning's wounded ducks would have been in trouble.  That said, no one prepared more than Peyton.  I remember watching a show on him where on gameday he'd throw 10 ins, 10 outs, 10 slants, 10 hooks, etc to his WRs to make sure their timing was on point.  

Brady had Moss for 3 seasons and depending on how healthy Gronk stays Moss will be the only HOF skill position WR Brady EVER played with.  Brady had the far superior offensive line-no argument there.  But Bis, you keep saying Brady had "great" WRs....he had 1, for 3 seasons.  Welker was very good but like Edelman they are both system guys...not elite by any means and won't ever be in the HOF discussion.  Same with Branch, Amendola, Gaffney, Troy Brown, Givens, Caldwell, Terry Glenn, Brandon Lloyd, and Dante Stallworth.  Not exactly the who's who of WR talent in the NFL.

Here's a serious question though-if being a game manager (which is what I believe you're saying Brady is) why don't more game managers win Super Bowls?  In the last 23 seasons there have been 2 mediocre QBs to win a SB (Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer).  I'll entertain the idea Brady is the best game manager of all-time but you make it sound being a game manager is so easy and anyone can do it.

Last, you were backwards in your Culpepper analogy.  Moss made Culpepper.  What happened when Randy left and Culpepper had no one to stretch the field?  Look up Culpepper's stats-he was done after Randy left him.  

Here's to hoping Peyton can pull one out tomorrow as nothing would make me happier.

i would throw joe flacco in there, i don't know why he was paid so much, they are way smarter than me, so i must be wrong, but joe flacco has never impressed me at all. he seemed to me the kind of middle cost qb that made sense on a supremely defense and run oriented team. i couldn't believe the contract he got... 

I agree with this 100 percent. Flacco is (was?) quite over rated.

Not nearly as over rated as Brady, but then that's impossible since Brady and Flacco are about the same level but Brady is labeled by many as great and Flacco isn't to that level of over rating.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/23/2016 2:11:00 PM (view original):
yeah, i mean i feel like there is a bunch of press about, flacco is an elite qb, hes underrated, all that. makes me wonder if i am completely insane or something. hes a solid qb for the ravens system, i think he deserves to be starting qb in the nfl, im not saying hes garbage. but to suggest he might be on par even with like an aaron rodgers, i just don't see it. 

I agree with this and want to point out that I think the EXACT same thing about Tom Brady as we agree about Joe Flacco.

LOL you just said Brady is a one system QB you lose any points for topics you make since that is completely false since they've made at least 3/4 changes to their offensive scheme, from run heavy at the beginning to a more vertical to Brady, to the dink/dunk you think all he can do, and then implemented some HUNH and new formational ids.

You keep thinking Harrison and Wayne are **** recievers without manning which again negates any serious points you make since that's one of the biggest jokes you've said so far here.  Harrison and Wayne are hof receivers with or without manning.  Edelman and Ammendola without Brady are not getting playing time on any time.

You can say Manning made Austin Collie a great receiver untill he got too many concussions.

Before 07 Brady had 0 quality receivers compared to Manning.  Givens, Brown, and Branch are nothing compared to Manning who has never played without a hof or potential hof wr.

You said you never heard of any of the Denver wr's then you just don't follow the nfl, because Thomas was a first round pick(and first wr taken), Decker had a break out season with Manning but his 2nd year with Tebow managed 8 TD's, he just doubled his receptions with Manning.  Sanders while never having the stats was a coveted player, with thr Pats offering him a contract the Steelers matched and then the Chiefs trying to sign him over the Broncos, again like Decker he just saw his targets increase, leading to increased stats.  The one other person besides Collie I will say Manning made better is Julius Thomas.

If you think Manning at any point in his career had a worse receiver core than Brady you are horrible at watching the NFL because the opposite is true and is a very widely accepted fact to pretty much everyone but you.

BRADY IS THE GOAT and the patriots are good at cheating... Plus his wife is ******* hott... let's be honest Peyton Manning is overrated in all aspects from passing to charisma... He's not clutch and his commercials have never been that good

If we are looking at commercials Manning has to win because I don't see any Brady commercials.

Brady doesn't need commercials... He's smooth enough to bang your mom in a dunkin donuts bathroom

rick james

I started disliking Brady immediately after the tuck rule game. He was so pompous. And still acts like a pompous ***. 

Posted by Benis on 1/24/2016 8:14:00 AM (view original):
I started disliking Brady immediately after the tuck rule game. He was so pompous. And still acts like a pompous ***. 

If you were the GOAT at something in your life you might be pompous too

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/23/2016 7:57:00 PM (view original):
LOL you just said Brady is a one system QB you lose any points for topics you make since that is completely false since they've made at least 3/4 changes to their offensive scheme, from run heavy at the beginning to a more vertical to Brady, to the dink/dunk you think all he can do, and then implemented some HUNH and new formational ids.

You keep thinking Harrison and Wayne are **** recievers without manning which again negates any serious points you make since that's one of the biggest jokes you've said so far here.  Harrison and Wayne are hof receivers with or without manning.  Edelman and Ammendola without Brady are not getting playing time on any time.

You can say Manning made Austin Collie a great receiver untill he got too many concussions.

Before 07 Brady had 0 quality receivers compared to Manning.  Givens, Brown, and Branch are nothing compared to Manning who has never played without a hof or potential hof wr.

You said you never heard of any of the Denver wr's then you just don't follow the nfl, because Thomas was a first round pick(and first wr taken), Decker had a break out season with Manning but his 2nd year with Tebow managed 8 TD's, he just doubled his receptions with Manning.  Sanders while never having the stats was a coveted player, with thr Pats offering him a contract the Steelers matched and then the Chiefs trying to sign him over the Broncos, again like Decker he just saw his targets increase, leading to increased stats.  The one other person besides Collie I will say Manning made better is Julius Thomas.

If you think Manning at any point in his career had a worse receiver core than Brady you are horrible at watching the NFL because the opposite is true and is a very widely accepted fact to pretty much everyone but you.

You've seriously misunderstood a great deal of what I've said.

New England has tweaked their system, as any good coach or team would do. That doesn't mean its a different system. They played to the talent they had around Brady. They go run heavy and dink and dunk when he doesn't have as great protection and receivers, when the talented guys are there, they open up more so those guys can carry Brady.

I never said Harrison and Wayne weren't any good without Manning; I just said part of the reason they WERE good is Manning. 

I completely disagree with you on Edelman, who has a lot of catch and run talent, and on Amendola, who was doing fine before ever coming to NE.

Brady had plenty of above average receivers who fit the system well and came through in the clutch in his early days. You can't act like he was throwing to you and I out there.

Manning helped make his receivers great. Brady has never made anyone great. Unless you want to argue Brady is what made Randy Moss great...no, don't try that.

The fact is Manning makes receivers (and really, everyone on offense) better because of his abilities, work ethic, study of the game, audibles, changes...the list goes on and on.

It's an insult to Manning to even compare Brady to him, really. Brady does none of what Manning does.

This guy above... He's a real idiot

Posted by Coach_Nate on 1/24/2016 8:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 1/24/2016 8:14:00 AM (view original):
I started disliking Brady immediately after the tuck rule game. He was so pompous. And still acts like a pompous ***. 

If you were the GOAT at something in your life you might be pompous too

I said I disliked him because he acted pompous after the tuck rule game. That was before he won his first Super Bowl, let alone became the "GOAT".

Hes been the GOAT since Bledsoe went down let's be realistic