merging worlds is a worse idea than opening new worlds.

They. Need. To. Advertise. The. Game.

They.Just.Aren't.That.Into.Us.

"We're always looking for ways to market the games, but we're very limited on budget." - developer's chat 9/17/2015

It's difficult to advertise if they don't get much of a budget and they won't get much of a budget if they don't start bringing in more users to increase their revenues and operating income. It's a vicious never ending cycle.

It's not just about a budget, there is simply no effort. They haven't done the free season giveaway at tourney time in a couple years right now, and all that requires is current players convincing people they know to give it a shot because of that free season.

If we are going to give them a pass because of budget issues, sorry I can't buy that if they are going through this big engine overhaul that will only cause a percentage of current players to walk while also failing to bring in any new players *if they don't advertise it*!!!!!

running a facebook page costs nothing except for when they are on the clock i guess, but you are already paying them, you can do it without the paid advertisements.

there aree many waysyou cou,d advertise with little oreven no costs but thats means giving a ****.

All this talk of closing worlds or merging is insane!!!! There are only 10 worlds. I suppose, if WIS thought the 2/day worlds did better than the 1/day, then closing a 1 and opening a new 2 would be a decent idea. Ask yourself "Why would coaches continue to stay in worlds in which they couldn't consistently get into the NT?" They won't. Over the long haul, with the rewards structure as it is, the worlds should settle out at about 96 players per level. It's surprising that only a couple divisions in a couple worlds are lower than that!!! If WIS starts merging or closing worlds to get from 10 down to 7 or 8, then it will simply be to kill off the game. There would be no justification for further expenditures on updates or advertising.

jsajsa is right about the advertising. Here's the crazy thing: he's wrong about WIS not giving away free seasons during the tournament in the past few seasons. They have!!! WIS just hasn't bothered to mention it. BUT THAT'S THE 2ND PROBLEM! Problem #1 is announcing a gigantic update after years of doing very little, then not doing anything! That's just de-motivates the folks that care about the game. They'll roll back their involvement until they see what is happening. If nothing happens at all, then all you will see is a resulting decline in participation.

Still, it's not that big a deal. The 120 - 150 users at D1 is about 30 - 50 more than rationally should be present. That speaks to an irrational desire to have a D1 program. However, until problem #1 is remedied (by either doing it or changing to a more modest update), then #2 really isn't going to matter.

I don't disagree and certainly don't believe they should be given a pass. But realistically, what did the free season giveaways produce? I don't have the data they do but my guess was that it brought a short time spike in users that was mostly attributed to existing users creating secondary or tertiary accounts to play the game for free.

Ultimately the problem this game has is that the numbers continue to decline ... a slow downward trajectory. At some point if they can't make the game work and pull in new users Fox will just abandon the game and it will die a slow death from attrition. Obviously, the game in its current state isn't increasing or even sustaining it user base. So to me it looks like the have to do something to change that and the solution appeared to be to "fix" recruiting.

My theory on their strategy (and it's just that a theory ... not that anyone cares anyway) is that Fox, recognizing that WIS games are experiencing an ever declining user base, has given them a limited increased budget designed to "improve" the games in hope that they will appeal to more users over the long term. In conjunction with that roll out (if and when that ever occurs) they will be given some additional funds with which to conduct a limited marketing campaign aimed at attracting new users - I don't think they are interested in marketing to new users until they can complete an update because they probably realize their retention rate of new users is abysmal with the current product. Either it will work or it won't. If it doesn't work I think it's likely the last hurrah ...Fox will further reduce the budget and either sell it off or just let it erode with minimal support until their is no one left. But there is no way they are going to continue spending on a product that shows no growth potential.

Posted by emy1013 on 2/27/2016 3:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by guyo26 on 2/27/2016 7:43:00 AM (view original):
I don't find it surprising, maybe those of you that were here back when it was more full notice more of a difference. The sad part is it makes those of us on the "most wins no championship" list even worse lol.

75 is really bad. If anything this should scuttle the talks about adding another world. What would it be there, 12 coaches?

These numbers should make it obvious to those clamoring for new worlds to open up that it just isn't practical. In fact, and I've advocated for this for a number of years, they (they being WiS/Fox) really need to figure out a reasonable plan on how to contract worlds.

Instead of 7/3, there needs to be something more along the lines of 4/1 or 4/2 maybe. At the same time, increase firings and make them work like they are supposed to work. Do this and there wouldn't need to be an artificial cap placed on how long a coach could stay at a school. When a coach accepts a new job, lay it out in the e-mail message from the AD. Here are the bare minimums, meet these and you're fine. Come up short and you'll be replaced, period. That way a new coach knows EXACTLY what he/she has to accomplish to stay at his new job and should he/she fail to meet those standards, there shouldn't be any complaining because that person knows going in what they have to do.

the problem with what you and zorzii are saying, is that it would be admitting defeat. if they have to close worlds, they are basically going to have to accept that they are just winding the game down to die. i don't want that. i'd rather see them fight. the problem is, when it gets so bad that world contraction would actually be good for the coaches (we are there now IMO), its just not financially worth it to fox/WIS. better to just let it die on its own, than to assist with the death.

what they need to do is to advertise this game, and get those 10 worlds filled back up. fixes at d1 are MANDATORY, but you and i have agreed on that point for 5 straight years. fix jobs, hirings and firings, tweak recruit gen, modify recruiting to be less addiction-requiring (you can't have everything hinge on making a 2 or 3 hour window)... it could work. people who played this game, over the years, have absolutely loved it. even for huge games, how many of their players sink hundreds or even thousands into the game? very, very few. here, most of the coaches still playing today, have sunk hundreds or thousands, i'd bet. but, nobody has heard of this game. advertise. it seems so obvious to those of us with a brain. too bad WIS is so short on brains, in jobs where they could do something about it :( the pop data really makes me think HD is probably done for.

I think if they ever come out with the update that was being discussed about 6 months ago, they could contact past users and offer them a free season to try it out. I think that would help. I am really discouraged that after all of that discussion of an exciting sounding update, nothing has been done.

Posted by rogelio on 2/27/2016 8:42:00 PM (view original):
All this talk of closing worlds or merging is insane!!!! There are only 10 worlds. I suppose, if WIS thought the 2/day worlds did better than the 1/day, then closing a 1 and opening a new 2 would be a decent idea. Ask yourself "Why would coaches continue to stay in worlds in which they couldn't consistently get into the NT?" They won't. Over the long haul, with the rewards structure as it is, the worlds should settle out at about 96 players per level. It's surprising that only a couple divisions in a couple worlds are lower than that!!! If WIS starts merging or closing worlds to get from 10 down to 7 or 8, then it will simply be to kill off the game. There would be no justification for further expenditures on updates or advertising.

jsajsa is right about the advertising. Here's the crazy thing: he's wrong about WIS not giving away free seasons during the tournament in the past few seasons. They have!!! WIS just hasn't bothered to mention it. BUT THAT'S THE 2ND PROBLEM! Problem #1 is announcing a gigantic update after years of doing very little, then not doing anything! That's just de-motivates the folks that care about the game. They'll roll back their involvement until they see what is happening. If nothing happens at all, then all you will see is a resulting decline in participation.

Still, it's not that big a deal. The 120 - 150 users at D1 is about 30 - 50 more than rationally should be present. That speaks to an irrational desire to have a D1 program. However, until problem #1 is remedied (by either doing it or changing to a more modest update), then #2 really isn't going to matter.

i agree with most of what you are saying - and i even subscribe to the theory that full HD worlds make zero sense, because coaches won't enjoy themselves if they can't compete at all. but, 96 is too low of a number, IMO. you should have a good 10-20 new rebuilding coaches, you should have a lot of people who are trying to get rebuilt, making the post season maybe 50/50 of the time, maybe 50 folks there. there are also some folks who will make the post season most of the time but not always, etc... i think you are looking at something like 40-50 extra coaches there, at least. i could buy as low as 130-150 being the "right number". this game had worlds full in the 200s and upper 100s for a long time. i do think that probably chased away some bottom coaches - i'd like to see the CBI implemented personally. maybe we lost folks because world were too full, but even long time coaches pick up rebuilding teams and have non-NT making teams for a while, its just normal, i don't think people are such babies that we can only have 1 human per post season slot. i don't think 3x, a full world, is the right answer, but 1.5x should be reasonable, i would think. it also de-values the NT when 2/3 coaches make the NT! i suppose sims take post season spots - which i didn't factor in - but really, i think 96 is really selling it short.

Posted by chapelhillne on 2/27/2016 10:14:00 PM (view original):
I think if they ever come out with the update that was being discussed about 6 months ago, they could contact past users and offer them a free season to try it out. I think that would help. I am really discouraged that after all of that discussion of an exciting sounding update, nothing has been done.

it sucks to hear you newer folks say this. the update proposed was MASSIVE! of course its not done yet! don't be discouraged so soon! i guess, being in software development myself, this is obvious to me. i can see how its not obvious to you guys, but trust me, this time frame for that scale of update, is still VERY reasonable. seble is just an idiot for not properly setting expectations - but that makes him and idiot in the same way that 75% of all programmers are idiots. that's why software companies with their **** together NEVER let developers tell customers their insanely unrealistic expectations for completion dates. its madness!

Posted by possumfiend on 2/27/2016 9:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't disagree and certainly don't believe they should be given a pass. But realistically, what did the free season giveaways produce? I don't have the data they do but my guess was that it brought a short time spike in users that was mostly attributed to existing users creating secondary or tertiary accounts to play the game for free.

Ultimately the problem this game has is that the numbers continue to decline ... a slow downward trajectory. At some point if they can't make the game work and pull in new users Fox will just abandon the game and it will die a slow death from attrition. Obviously, the game in its current state isn't increasing or even sustaining it user base. So to me it looks like the have to do something to change that and the solution appeared to be to "fix" recruiting.

My theory on their strategy (and it's just that a theory ... not that anyone cares anyway) is that Fox, recognizing that WIS games are experiencing an ever declining user base, has given them a limited increased budget designed to "improve" the games in hope that they will appeal to more users over the long term. In conjunction with that roll out (if and when that ever occurs) they will be given some additional funds with which to conduct a limited marketing campaign aimed at attracting new users - I don't think they are interested in marketing to new users until they can complete an update because they probably realize their retention rate of new users is abysmal with the current product. Either it will work or it won't. If it doesn't work I think it's likely the last hurrah ...Fox will further reduce the budget and either sell it off or just let it erode with minimal support until their is no one left. But there is no way they are going to continue spending on a product that shows no growth potential.

let's start a player pool and buy HD ourselves! its probably not worth anything anymore, i bet we could get it cheap. this is drunk CBG talking, but drunk CBG totally thinks we should mass ticket seble and ask him to ask WIS how much they would sell it to the user base for. we would retain seble and they would get all the other WIS properties and employees. ill pony up the first 1k, so, if we can find 9 other coaches to pony up, we should have enough ;) no, im just kidding, 10k wouldn't do it :( - although from a business standpoint, this game is probably worth literally nothing, maybe negative.

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/27/2016 10:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by chapelhillne on 2/27/2016 10:14:00 PM (view original):
I think if they ever come out with the update that was being discussed about 6 months ago, they could contact past users and offer them a free season to try it out. I think that would help. I am really discouraged that after all of that discussion of an exciting sounding update, nothing has been done.

it sucks to hear you newer folks say this. the update proposed was MASSIVE! of course its not done yet! don't be discouraged so soon! i guess, being in software development myself, this is obvious to me. i can see how its not obvious to you guys, but trust me, this time frame for that scale of update, is still VERY reasonable. seble is just an idiot for not properly setting expectations - but that makes him and idiot in the same way that 75% of all programmers are idiots. that's why software companies with their **** together NEVER let developers tell customers their insanely unrealistic expectations for completion dates. its madness!

drunk cbg at his finest - chapel with 11000 games and 9 titles on this id - one of the "newer" folks...see real new guys, it never ends, even for some of us "vets"

i even left out the part i meant to say, the newer folks aren't as used to the WIS development timeline, and actually believe what CS says, or at least believe it a little bit. its sad to watch, really, because you know what it will do for them over time. i think most long time coaches are fairly cynical and pragmatic because you have to be to play this game and not go crazy. but, that's not what a game is supposed to be. it should be whimsical and fun. so, its just sad to watch the newer folks get let down by CS, to see their optimism squashed.