Posted by oldresorter on 2/28/2016 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 2/28/2016 8:33:00 AM (view original):
Oldresorter : we could restart the world over, but to be honest, as I am one climbing the ladder, or trying to climb it, I think it's not starting over that would help out people trying to get competitive in D1.

1) Start firing going.
2) Make the job process logic, logic. A team A- left by an owner, should drop a letter minimum in prestige so that other teams can apply. You could cap it at C prestige so big six do not drop that much. Once you reach some sort of mid-major talent, you should be able to apply to any low-end D1 team, not just by the prestige random chart.
3) Diminish the value of conference NT wins, so you can compete with big six teams when you recruit.
4) Make top recruits recruitable from everywhere in the world (1-50), make recruits have expectations, start, minutes per game etc.
5) Fix recruit generation.

I think slowly taking care of this would improve the game a lot.
In DIII, you need to make location less important.

DII is probably the less flawled of all divisions.

starting over would only apply to tenured 50 year coaches. Anyone climbing the latter would move to the front of the queue. Not sure if that addresses your concerns or not.

IMO I think this would really fix the firing and hiring issues with many people, the problem is with so few openings, more and more pressure is on those two issues, and NO process will EVER make ANYONE happy other than the guy who gets the job.

Firing in particular, I can't think of a better way to lose coaches - although the 50 year and then start over might lose a fair share right away, once it is in place, IMO it 'might' be the fix people are actually looking for.

Anyhow, hope that helps.

on a deep level, i really don't like making coaches leave, because this is a dynasty game. the whole point, it would seem, is to build a great dynasty. making people leave really runs against that.

however, i do see the real problem in d1 that this addresses. so, maybe there is a way to make it work? what are some problems and improvements over the simple "50 years and you are out" model?
- d2/d3 have unlimited flat schools, it seems somewhat cruel to force people out for no reason. i would propose the limit only applies to d1 schools
- it seems unfair that some folks would make it to d1 in 10 seasons, and then get 40, while others might spend 35 seasons building programs in the lower level, before deciding to try d1. this would not give them enough time to really experience d1. i would propose the limit only starts at the time you join d1 (presumably the limit would drop below 50 seasons in this case)
- forcing d1 only coaches to play d3 and d2 again would chase many away. its bad enough you are taking their dynasty away, but now you make them grind d3 and d2 again? some might be happy to do it, but those who don't want to, shouldn't have to. i would propose allowing d1 coaches to restart in d1, starting with a new clock and a resume that qualifies them for some lower schools. how low, i'm not sure, maybe a d+, maybe a c, something along those lines.
- i'm not convinced just starting the clock on d1 is enough. some guys get to a BCS school quick, others might make a half dozen stops to their destination. i think its really about time at the destination, that needs to be capped. a guy who coaches a mid major then a low BCS then another mid major then a med BCS and finally a strong BCS school, really has not blocked up anything until he got to the strong BCS school. similarly, some coaches only stick around a BCS program for a while, before wanting a change of scenery. i think those folks are also not blocking up much, unless i suppose they are just switching between A+ elites. if they are rebuilding new BCS programs each time, i think thats fine. we could try something like, every time you switch d1 jobs, to a B+ or lower program, you get 5 (maybe higher, 10?) years added back to your "clock", not exceeding the initial cap.
- under this paradigm, i could see a cap in the 30-40 season range.

im not sure i'd be for the change, with these rules, but i certainly don't have a deep loathing for it like i did years ago. i would definitely be against something like a 50 year flat cap without any limitations. but, i think if you are basically leaving everybody else alone, and saying, hey if you want to be the best, to compete at the highest level of this game, then part of that is that you can't sit on your perch forever - then i could minimally live with it! i don't think the rule should impact those who are not at the highest level of the game though, thats my objection (basically, for those veteran-haters, i'm saying i could live with this applying to someone like me, but not some younger coach who hasn't had a top tier school for a long time - so please don't frame these suggestions as selfishly motivated!).

i still worry that there might be folks who this system doesn't work well for, a guy who spends 20 seasons at a mid major before "getting it", or a very normal case, spending a dozen or so seasons at a mid major, and then 15 building a low bcs up to a+. that guy would have, with a 30 season cap, 30 - 12 - 15 + 5 = 7 seasons to enjoy that a+. the +5 is the bonus for switching jobs. that's just not enough time. maybe there is a better way, like the "clock" only starts if you have an a- or better prestige. maybe something like, when you switch jobs, you get a minimum of 20 seasons there unless you went from a- or better BCS to a- or better BCS, or something. i'm not sure - but to me, the goal should be to limit time on top of the mountain. i don't think this is fully addressed in the suggestions above but i think it is critical to coming up with a plan that works well, i.e. does not affect people who have not been on top of the mountain for a long time yet.

Posted by npb7768 on 2/28/2016 12:11:00 PM (view original):
These proposals probably won't be implemented.
But we're an online game community. We're tossing around ideas on how to promote and improve the game.
I think its very shortsighted to just outright dismiss some of these ideas without at least talking things through.
You'd rather shout down people with F-bombs and burn the house down.
But hey, keep yelling louder, and we can keep watching our population numbers crater.

i think this is a good conversation so far actually. dac is explaining why he thinks the system is unfair. that is a healthy part of the conversation and a viewpoint that deserves to be shared. frankly, i don't see what the problem is (where is he yelling and dropping f-bombs?). i think people who are for and against a change, all deserve the chance to express their support or objection, or whatever else they want to express.

I realize this is a logical fallacy in a way - but I am really not invoking a slippery slope argument, just a logical extension.

Why is it only the "top" schools that are subject to it? What if some new coach has his heart set on Valpo - his dad played there, he graduated there, it's the only thing he's wanted to do in HD. But the only world he is in D1 the coach at Valpo just won't leave. For his own reasons he's perfectly content.

Why shouldn't that Valpo guy be forced to move on when someone wants his spot?

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/28/2016 12:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 2/28/2016 12:11:00 PM (view original):
These proposals probably won't be implemented.
But we're an online game community. We're tossing around ideas on how to promote and improve the game.
I think its very shortsighted to just outright dismiss some of these ideas without at least talking things through.
You'd rather shout down people with F-bombs and burn the house down.
But hey, keep yelling louder, and we can keep watching our population numbers crater.

i think this is a good conversation so far actually. dac is explaining why he thinks the system is unfair. that is a healthy part of the conversation and a viewpoint that deserves to be shared. frankly, i don't see what the problem is (where is he yelling and dropping f-bombs?). i think people who are for and against a change, all deserve the chance to express their support or objection, or whatever else they want to express.

I'm not yelling, but I am dropping f bombs. But I figure this is an adult enough place and I think the site has profanity filtering preferences if not, so **** it.

Posted by dacj501 on 2/28/2016 12:36:00 PM (view original):
I realize this is a logical fallacy in a way - but I am really not invoking a slippery slope argument, just a logical extension.

Why is it only the "top" schools that are subject to it? What if some new coach has his heart set on Valpo - his dad played there, he graduated there, it's the only thing he's wanted to do in HD. But the only world he is in D1 the coach at Valpo just won't leave. For his own reasons he's perfectly content.

Why shouldn't that Valpo guy be forced to move on when someone wants his spot?

no, its a fair point you make. in the suggestions in my post above, nothing there excludes a valpo coach from the limit. d2/d3 coaches would be excluded, so you could make the argument there. if we only started the clock when a d1 school hit an a-, with 30 seasons on the clock, or something like that - maybe the valpo coach would never get to an a-, but he wouldn't be excluded if he did. i don't like to presume that only bcs schools can be top jobs, if the game is fixed and d1 is leveled out, there could be more top mid majors.

anyway, i think the issue with the favorite coach @ valpo is different, and a lesser issue, anyway. mfnmyers loved davidson, coaches all 10, so if you are a davidson fan, you are **** out of luck. but most little schools people like are probably available somewhere (which may not help much, but its something). anyway, i don't think this is about catering to people's personal preferences. in the game, being at your favorite school has no in-game effect. but, being an an a+ elite, does. so, i think they are totally separate, and there is nothing wrong with addressing one without the other.

I don't think I'm for a cap or a limit. I have a couple of Big6 teams, but no A+ baseline school, and I've never won a title at any level if that matters. I've chosen schools because I went there, I've chosen schools for the conference difficulty, I've chosen schools for the oddball aspect (Puerto Rico, AK), I've chosen schools because that was the Big6 team I qualified for and wanted. I've chosen schools because they're close to where I live.

At no time did I choose a school because that was the end of the line. I don't see it as a linear progression of starting out at D3 at some school you've never heard of, working up to D2, then up through D1 until you're at XYZ school that we all know and see on TV. I suppose if I was worried about winning a title and thought that I had to have one of a small handful of schools at D1 to do it then I'd move to D2 or D3.

I think there's some truth to D2 being the "best" level of this game. Anyone can take any school and win a title. Even if it's not the "name" schools that are so coveted in D1, it's a purely level playing field (you could argue except for the PR schools, but still). I think many of us get enamored with the A+'s because that's who we know or who we root for, but I like the thread where people relate stories about being on a plane and seeing a shirt for some D3 school and almost blurting out that they coach them. Does anyone ever do that when they see someone wearing a UNC shirt?

I know some people have reasons for being fired up that their school isn't open, but I don't see that as a reason to pick up your ball and go home or to force change on everyone else. We can wait. Sure it takes years, and hundreds of dollars, but just work on being the best coach in D2 then? See if you can make a Hartford team that doesn't excel in Ath and Def go to the S16 and shock everyone.

It's true that it's not really "What If ..." at D1, but that's ok. There's still, to me, a ton of fun in this game at all levels. Jsa crushes at Delaware Valley College. I'm not even sure what state that's in and I played him for about a year IRL. There are D2 coaches (sorry for lack of names, but D2 is my weak spot) that are amazing coaches. Sure, maybe they're not coaching Kansas or Kentucky to 50 straight Final Fours, but who cares?

I got all rambly. I don't think there's any need for caps. Firing could be improved, but I don't see WIS ever making paying people mad like that. If you want an A+ and it's not open, join another world or find another way to win and enjoy. Colors and school names don't really mean that much at the end of the day to me.

Posted by dacj501 on 2/28/2016 12:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/28/2016 12:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 2/28/2016 12:11:00 PM (view original):
These proposals probably won't be implemented.
But we're an online game community. We're tossing around ideas on how to promote and improve the game.
I think its very shortsighted to just outright dismiss some of these ideas without at least talking things through.
You'd rather shout down people with F-bombs and burn the house down.
But hey, keep yelling louder, and we can keep watching our population numbers crater.

i think this is a good conversation so far actually. dac is explaining why he thinks the system is unfair. that is a healthy part of the conversation and a viewpoint that deserves to be shared. frankly, i don't see what the problem is (where is he yelling and dropping f-bombs?). i think people who are for and against a change, all deserve the chance to express their support or objection, or whatever else they want to express.

I'm not yelling, but I am dropping f bombs. But I figure this is an adult enough place and I think the site has profanity filtering preferences if not, so **** it.

ok, i went back and looked, i see it now :) ok, so yes npb, dac stated his opinions colorfully, ill give you that. but, its not like he said "**** you oldresorter, you can take my team when you pry it from my cold dead hands". there wasn't a personal insult in there anywhere, unless i am mistaken. really, my point is i don't think anything said was vicious or personally insulting, yelling or just completely dismissing an idea. yeah, dac is strongly opposed, but i don't think that is inherently wrong. i think your characterization of the crime is worse than the crime itself.

Now, this isn't a totally fair representation since, at the time, there was no 30 season clock, and had there been one, and I knew about it, my career choices would have very likely been different.

That said, I know you well remember my 17 largely ineffective seasons at Alabama in Tark. My pinnacle was a Sweet 16 in season 58, where I raised the Tide to A- prestige for the only time in my run. That would start my clock.

I bounce around a lot, and toward the end I got particularly driftless as I began to give up on the possibility of ever making it to a top team - figured I wasn't good enough, and that's that, and started to lose interest. But I spent another 27 seasons in various D1 jobs, and never again hit A-. So I'd have 3 seasons left, and I'd still not have accomplished anything...

maybe the lack of foreknowledge is too much for this to be relevant, idk.

link to resume

Posted by guyo26 on 2/28/2016 12:57:00 PM (view original):
I don't think I'm for a cap or a limit. I have a couple of Big6 teams, but no A+ baseline school, and I've never won a title at any level if that matters. I've chosen schools because I went there, I've chosen schools for the conference difficulty, I've chosen schools for the oddball aspect (Puerto Rico, AK), I've chosen schools because that was the Big6 team I qualified for and wanted. I've chosen schools because they're close to where I live.

At no time did I choose a school because that was the end of the line. I don't see it as a linear progression of starting out at D3 at some school you've never heard of, working up to D2, then up through D1 until you're at XYZ school that we all know and see on TV. I suppose if I was worried about winning a title and thought that I had to have one of a small handful of schools at D1 to do it then I'd move to D2 or D3.

I think there's some truth to D2 being the "best" level of this game. Anyone can take any school and win a title. Even if it's not the "name" schools that are so coveted in D1, it's a purely level playing field (you could argue except for the PR schools, but still). I think many of us get enamored with the A+'s because that's who we know or who we root for, but I like the thread where people relate stories about being on a plane and seeing a shirt for some D3 school and almost blurting out that they coach them. Does anyone ever do that when they see someone wearing a UNC shirt?

I know some people have reasons for being fired up that their school isn't open, but I don't see that as a reason to pick up your ball and go home or to force change on everyone else. We can wait. Sure it takes years, and hundreds of dollars, but just work on being the best coach in D2 then? See if you can make a Hartford team that doesn't excel in Ath and Def go to the S16 and shock everyone.

It's true that it's not really "What If ..." at D1, but that's ok. There's still, to me, a ton of fun in this game at all levels. Jsa crushes at Delaware Valley College. I'm not even sure what state that's in and I played him for about a year IRL. There are D2 coaches (sorry for lack of names, but D2 is my weak spot) that are amazing coaches. Sure, maybe they're not coaching Kansas or Kentucky to 50 straight Final Fours, but who cares?

I got all rambly. I don't think there's any need for caps. Firing could be improved, but I don't see WIS ever making paying people mad like that. If you want an A+ and it's not open, join another world or find another way to win and enjoy. Colors and school names don't really mean that much at the end of the day to me.

i agree with most of this. but guyo... delaware valley college is in - delaware! :)

Posted by guyo26 on 2/28/2016 12:57:00 PM (view original):
I don't think I'm for a cap or a limit. I have a couple of Big6 teams, but no A+ baseline school, and I've never won a title at any level if that matters. I've chosen schools because I went there, I've chosen schools for the conference difficulty, I've chosen schools for the oddball aspect (Puerto Rico, AK), I've chosen schools because that was the Big6 team I qualified for and wanted. I've chosen schools because they're close to where I live.

At no time did I choose a school because that was the end of the line. I don't see it as a linear progression of starting out at D3 at some school you've never heard of, working up to D2, then up through D1 until you're at XYZ school that we all know and see on TV. I suppose if I was worried about winning a title and thought that I had to have one of a small handful of schools at D1 to do it then I'd move to D2 or D3.

I think there's some truth to D2 being the "best" level of this game. Anyone can take any school and win a title. Even if it's not the "name" schools that are so coveted in D1, it's a purely level playing field (you could argue except for the PR schools, but still). I think many of us get enamored with the A+'s because that's who we know or who we root for, but I like the thread where people relate stories about being on a plane and seeing a shirt for some D3 school and almost blurting out that they coach them. Does anyone ever do that when they see someone wearing a UNC shirt?

I know some people have reasons for being fired up that their school isn't open, but I don't see that as a reason to pick up your ball and go home or to force change on everyone else. We can wait. Sure it takes years, and hundreds of dollars, but just work on being the best coach in D2 then? See if you can make a Hartford team that doesn't excel in Ath and Def go to the S16 and shock everyone.

It's true that it's not really "What If ..." at D1, but that's ok. There's still, to me, a ton of fun in this game at all levels. Jsa crushes at Delaware Valley College. I'm not even sure what state that's in and I played him for about a year IRL. There are D2 coaches (sorry for lack of names, but D2 is my weak spot) that are amazing coaches. Sure, maybe they're not coaching Kansas or Kentucky to 50 straight Final Fours, but who cares?

I got all rambly. I don't think there's any need for caps. Firing could be improved, but I don't see WIS ever making paying people mad like that. If you want an A+ and it's not open, join another world or find another way to win and enjoy. Colors and school names don't really mean that much at the end of the day to me.

that's what I meant, without all the *****.

And dac makes exactly the point why capping at a number stinks to me. Most other sports sim games give some sort of cap and it usually sucks because by the time you get to year 30 or whatever you've either just started grooving and want to get better or you started at a gem and are burnt out anyway.

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/28/2016 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by guyo26 on 2/28/2016 12:57:00 PM (view original):
I don't think I'm for a cap or a limit. I have a couple of Big6 teams, but no A+ baseline school, and I've never won a title at any level if that matters. I've chosen schools because I went there, I've chosen schools for the conference difficulty, I've chosen schools for the oddball aspect (Puerto Rico, AK), I've chosen schools because that was the Big6 team I qualified for and wanted. I've chosen schools because they're close to where I live.

At no time did I choose a school because that was the end of the line. I don't see it as a linear progression of starting out at D3 at some school you've never heard of, working up to D2, then up through D1 until you're at XYZ school that we all know and see on TV. I suppose if I was worried about winning a title and thought that I had to have one of a small handful of schools at D1 to do it then I'd move to D2 or D3.

I think there's some truth to D2 being the "best" level of this game. Anyone can take any school and win a title. Even if it's not the "name" schools that are so coveted in D1, it's a purely level playing field (you could argue except for the PR schools, but still). I think many of us get enamored with the A+'s because that's who we know or who we root for, but I like the thread where people relate stories about being on a plane and seeing a shirt for some D3 school and almost blurting out that they coach them. Does anyone ever do that when they see someone wearing a UNC shirt?

I know some people have reasons for being fired up that their school isn't open, but I don't see that as a reason to pick up your ball and go home or to force change on everyone else. We can wait. Sure it takes years, and hundreds of dollars, but just work on being the best coach in D2 then? See if you can make a Hartford team that doesn't excel in Ath and Def go to the S16 and shock everyone.

It's true that it's not really "What If ..." at D1, but that's ok. There's still, to me, a ton of fun in this game at all levels. Jsa crushes at Delaware Valley College. I'm not even sure what state that's in and I played him for about a year IRL. There are D2 coaches (sorry for lack of names, but D2 is my weak spot) that are amazing coaches. Sure, maybe they're not coaching Kansas or Kentucky to 50 straight Final Fours, but who cares?

I got all rambly. I don't think there's any need for caps. Firing could be improved, but I don't see WIS ever making paying people mad like that. If you want an A+ and it's not open, join another world or find another way to win and enjoy. Colors and school names don't really mean that much at the end of the day to me.

i agree with most of this. but guyo... delaware valley college is in - delaware! :)

hey, he's right to be confused - Ohio Valley is in West Virginia...

Lol, touche gil :)

Posted by dacj501 on 2/28/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Now, this isn't a totally fair representation since, at the time, there was no 30 season clock, and had there been one, and I knew about it, my career choices would have very likely been different.

That said, I know you well remember my 17 largely ineffective seasons at Alabama in Tark. My pinnacle was a Sweet 16 in season 58, where I raised the Tide to A- prestige for the only time in my run. That would start my clock.

I bounce around a lot, and toward the end I got particularly driftless as I began to give up on the possibility of ever making it to a top team - figured I wasn't good enough, and that's that, and started to lose interest. But I spent another 27 seasons in various D1 jobs, and never again hit A-. So I'd have 3 seasons left, and I'd still not have accomplished anything...

maybe the lack of foreknowledge is too much for this to be relevant, idk.

link to resume

like i said, i am totally against a hard cap, without some adjustments. your example almost perfectly matches one of the examples from my post, so i agree with you... that said, what is the potential fix? i know you don't like the idea, i inherently don't either, but thinking about the fixes makes me hate it less!

i suggested maybe when you move from one school to another, if its not a- or better to a- or better, then you get 5-10 seasons added back on your clock. in your case, you jumped around a lot, you'd have plenty of clock left. maybe the time added should depend on the situation, if you pick up a mid major, you basically start the clock over. if you pick up a c bcs school, maybe you get 10 more seasons, if its a b bcs school, maybe you get 7, and a- or up, you get 5 (assuming you aren't coming from a- bcs).

so, abstracting away from the specific cases and fixes - let me ask you this. if the system was structured in a way, where it achieved the goal of not penalizing anyone except those who have been at the top for a long time, would you be any less against it? suppose a coach finally gets to a BCS elite, and then gets 40 seasons there, and then has to leave - do you think that is really that bad?

He edited his f-bomb comments. I'm not offended by them, but i get aggravated when threads devolve into repeated posts attempting to intimidate or figuratively shout down other posters. And his initial response to term limits wasn't a reasoned response. It was a quick rant about effing leaving and never coming back. You're actually enabling dacj by trying to soften his stance. It's the same thing that happened in seble's recruiting threads. He or a couple of other posters go on kindergarten rants.

Anyway,
Here's my serious proposal about what to do it the short term, like today, this minute: ( i posted this earlier in the thread)

Every one of us should go to our respective favorite schools' real life message forums and start a thread about HD. Nothing tok long, just a concise description. These hundreds of forums have hundreds of members. Many love discussing roster management, strategies, everything that we also enjoy. If hundreds of fans of each school learn about the game and some go and browse HD because of it, then hopefully a handful from each school will test out this game.

The thread could be presented as a cool game and you're looking for 12 Kentucky fans to fill up a conference and compete.

Something like this doesn't require seble's help or Fox's advertising. We have Crum and Iba opening up early this week. We have March Madness upcoming in real life. Everyone here should post about HD immediately.

Amen.

Now get off my lawn.