Posted by emy1013 on 5/19/2016 12:14:00 AM (view original):
Sorry, but with those kind of BH/Pass ratings, that team should be averaging way over 17.5 TO's per night. In fact, if they managed to steal the ball anywhere besides right under the opposition basket, there should be a decent chance that they'd turn the ball over on their ensuing possession. Just another example of how skewed the engine is towards Ath/Def.

To the post above that said it's cool that he's able to win in a different way, he's not. He's just taken the whole "Ath/Def" to near about it's most extreme level. He's not doing anything different then what's written in the How to Win at D2/D3 thread, he's just doing it at a hyper extreme level. Not to begrudge him, he's found a strategy that is very, very effective but he's also proven almost single handed that certain elements in the game engine need to be reined in.

Between the extreme Ath/Def teams (of which I tend to be contributor) and the 6/6/0/0 or 6/0/6/0 type teams, it's almost getting to the point where if a "normal" team wants to compete they have to sell out to one of those type strategies or face early NT exits, at best, every season. Oh sure, it's not impossible to win with different team set-ups, but it's becoming more and more difficult as more and more coaches sell out and go that route. Just a grumpy old man's two cents.

I haven't agreed more with almost anything that's ever been said in this entire forum.

Nothing personal against this coach or coaches that use super-classes...but strategies like these take absolutely no skill whatsoever, though much much more so for the later of those two.

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/20/2016 12:00:00 AM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 5/19/2016 12:14:00 AM (view original):
Sorry, but with those kind of BH/Pass ratings, that team should be averaging way over 17.5 TO's per night. In fact, if they managed to steal the ball anywhere besides right under the opposition basket, there should be a decent chance that they'd turn the ball over on their ensuing possession. Just another example of how skewed the engine is towards Ath/Def.

To the post above that said it's cool that he's able to win in a different way, he's not. He's just taken the whole "Ath/Def" to near about it's most extreme level. He's not doing anything different then what's written in the How to Win at D2/D3 thread, he's just doing it at a hyper extreme level. Not to begrudge him, he's found a strategy that is very, very effective but he's also proven almost single handed that certain elements in the game engine need to be reined in.

Between the extreme Ath/Def teams (of which I tend to be contributor) and the 6/6/0/0 or 6/0/6/0 type teams, it's almost getting to the point where if a "normal" team wants to compete they have to sell out to one of those type strategies or face early NT exits, at best, every season. Oh sure, it's not impossible to win with different team set-ups, but it's becoming more and more difficult as more and more coaches sell out and go that route. Just a grumpy old man's two cents.

I haven't agreed more with almost anything that's ever been said in this entire forum.

Nothing personal against this coach or coaches that use super-classes...but strategies like these take absolutely no skill whatsoever, though much much more so for the later of those two.

Myers should get 100% credit and nothing should ever be taken away from his success. In regards to the 6/6/0/0, that isn't a super class. It's just 6 seniors and 6 juniors. 12 seniors would be a super class. It's not uncommon, IRL, to have 8 or 9 seniors on a team. When teams were allowed to carry 12 players in one class and everyone considered those super classes, nobody ever referred to the 6/6/0/0 as a super class, so not sure why that would change now.

This isn't myers fault, it's the developers of the game. A team with 24 ballhandling, 18 passing. There are D-1 PF's and C's with ballhandling/pass ratings in the 60s and 70s. The fact that they only have a 36 team speed rating and run a fastbreak style offense, you can surely see the ridiculousness of all of this. On top of that, abysmal perimeter and low post ratings. So basically, a team with zero offensive basketball skill is allowed to score 100 points per game and go to the line 70 times is quite absurd.

Posted by thewizard17 on 5/20/2016 1:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/20/2016 12:00:00 AM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 5/19/2016 12:14:00 AM (view original):
Sorry, but with those kind of BH/Pass ratings, that team should be averaging way over 17.5 TO's per night. In fact, if they managed to steal the ball anywhere besides right under the opposition basket, there should be a decent chance that they'd turn the ball over on their ensuing possession. Just another example of how skewed the engine is towards Ath/Def.

To the post above that said it's cool that he's able to win in a different way, he's not. He's just taken the whole "Ath/Def" to near about it's most extreme level. He's not doing anything different then what's written in the How to Win at D2/D3 thread, he's just doing it at a hyper extreme level. Not to begrudge him, he's found a strategy that is very, very effective but he's also proven almost single handed that certain elements in the game engine need to be reined in.

Between the extreme Ath/Def teams (of which I tend to be contributor) and the 6/6/0/0 or 6/0/6/0 type teams, it's almost getting to the point where if a "normal" team wants to compete they have to sell out to one of those type strategies or face early NT exits, at best, every season. Oh sure, it's not impossible to win with different team set-ups, but it's becoming more and more difficult as more and more coaches sell out and go that route. Just a grumpy old man's two cents.

I haven't agreed more with almost anything that's ever been said in this entire forum.

Nothing personal against this coach or coaches that use super-classes...but strategies like these take absolutely no skill whatsoever, though much much more so for the later of those two.

Myers should get 100% credit and nothing should ever be taken away from his success. In regards to the 6/6/0/0, that isn't a super class. It's just 6 seniors and 6 juniors. 12 seniors would be a super class. It's not uncommon, IRL, to have 8 or 9 seniors on a team. When teams were allowed to carry 12 players in one class and everyone considered those super classes, nobody ever referred to the 6/6/0/0 as a super class, so not sure why that would change now.

This isn't myers fault, it's the developers of the game. A team with 24 ballhandling, 18 passing. There are D-1 PF's and C's with ballhandling/pass ratings in the 60s and 70s. The fact that they only have a 36 team speed rating and run a fastbreak style offense, you can surely see the ridiculousness of all of this. On top of that, abysmal perimeter and low post ratings. So basically, a team with zero offensive basketball skill is allowed to score 100 points per game and go to the line 70 times is quite absurd.

A couple thoughts: Firstly, there aren't any asterisks beside that coach or super-class coaches profiles, but if you think coaches who systematically use a specific Off/Def combination which allows them to only have to recruit for two attributes and/or recruits so they'll have a season with a team comprised only of upperclassmen (not to mention that when they do recruit they've been able to stockpile 100% of postseason money for 3 seasons in a row) deserve the same amount of respect from the HD community at large, then I honestly don't even know how to respond. Secondly, today IRL, I think it is very uncommon to have 8 or 9 seniors on a team. Thirdly, sure the original meaning of 'superclass' 12 seniors, but that was forever ago and each time the subject of 'superclasses' has come up for years now there isn't any confusion about what it means, imho.

Lastly, I totally agree with your last section, but do you see how big of a non-sequitur that is??? Initially, you say it's equally impressive no matter how you win, then you very nicely layout the argument for how winning in that fashion is the path of least resistance...soooo, yeah.

I've said it in the past and I'll say it again, if I wanted to use the superclass structure then I could have won 20 championships by now. And I totally agree with emy that it seems like people are resorting to it more consistently as of lately.

I don't have any problems with the "quirky" team designs.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/20/2016 8:47:00 AM (view original):
I don't have any problems with the "quirky" team designs.

Neither do I and would actually like to see more of it, even doing a little bit of it myself at the moment. But a Fastbreak/Press team that basically recruits for only ATH and DEF sounds like the opposite of "quirky" to me. Although, it seems like you got a lot of quirk in you, so I might have to yield to your position on this one.

IMO, the complainents about this, and poor myers who is a super nice guy when he does post gets them reasonably frequently, stem from the fact that people think THEIR way of building a team should be successful. I like the fact that you don't NEED one attribute to win. I also feel that the balanced team IS the best way to win.

If the ATH/DEF system was the ONLY way to win I would complain but good teams beat Dickinson all the time. It's not like this system, or any other, is the be all and end all to winning.

Are there any "quirky" 3 point shooting teams? Like 70+ PER at all positions.

Obviously it's not the ONLY way to win, but it is unarguably the EASIEST way to win, especially in that scenario. I might be a lot of things, but nobody has ever accused me of being a player hater. However, that doesn't mean you gotta respect those players that can only get a date by inviting a chick to a 'party' then conveniently forgetting to invite anybody else.

Actually, what I'm getting at has nothing to do myers. His body of work speaks for itself (I use to play him all the time and think he's a good coach) and will do nothing to besmirch his good name. He's only being passively lumped into this since the OP is about his team, but there is a good reason for that --- because that team is a poster-boy for one of the least imaginative ways to be successful at HD.

I actually don't think it's the easiest way to win either. Most of the Dickinson copy cats aren't very successful.

And I can unargue almost any point with ruthless inefficiency.

Posted by scaturo on 5/20/2016 11:25:00 AM (view original):
I actually don't think it's the easiest way to win either. Most of the Dickinson copy cats aren't very successful.

most of the dickinson copy cats are the literal versions of ath/def.

Myers does get spd and usually 1/2 guys with 50+ bh 40+ pas as well as good bigs that aren't actually just ath/def and have nice rebounding. So the myers copycats fail because they actually think its just ath/def you have to get and don't 0 spd/bh/pas and no rebounding, while myers best dickinson teams usually have 1-2 acceptable bh/pas players and does not go all out for ath/def in his big men

Posted by scaturo on 5/20/2016 11:26:00 AM (view original):
And I can unargue almost any point with ruthless inefficiency.

please tell me that you just made that up...and it's not a cliché.

I'm not a very morbid person, nor has this thought ever crossed my mind, but I think I've got a leading candidate for my epitaph.

Posted by Baums_away on 5/20/2016 10:38:00 AM (view original):
Are there any "quirky" 3 point shooting teams? Like 70+ PER at all positions.

Not that I know. That wouldn't be very useful. Every elite defender adds elite defense. Once you have a few elite scorers on the floor, additional scorers aren't adding much, since there are only so many shots to go around and up to a point reducing volume doesn't improve efficiency all that greatly. If you had all your guards and SFs be shooters it would already be an elite 3-point shooting team.

Posted by the0nlyis on 5/20/2016 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by scaturo on 5/20/2016 11:25:00 AM (view original):
I actually don't think it's the easiest way to win either. Most of the Dickinson copy cats aren't very successful.

most of the dickinson copy cats are the literal versions of ath/def.

Myers does get spd and usually 1/2 guys with 50+ bh 40+ pas as well as good bigs that aren't actually just ath/def and have nice rebounding. So the myers copycats fail because they actually think its just ath/def you have to get and don't 0 spd/bh/pas and no rebounding, while myers best dickinson teams usually have 1-2 acceptable bh/pas players and does not go all out for ath/def in his big men

Is this for real yo??? Because I said early earlier I said "a Fastbreak/Press team that basically recruits for only ATH and DEF sounds like the opposite of 'quirky' to me." But regardless, that's not a literal statement because you can almost always find players that have great ATH/DEF and a minimum of below average core ratings (at least in time) since they generate both frontcourt and backcourt players in that fashion.

Though, needless to say, its much easier to find PF/C with suitable core ratings than backcourt guys - which is why that team has several quality big men (in everything besides LP), but only one guard has above 40 BH and only two have above 30 PS...and guess what, those are three different players. And until last night, if not for a last second buzzer beater in the elite 8, that team would still be buzzsawing its way through a superb undefeated season.

Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/20/2016 12:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 5/20/2016 11:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by scaturo on 5/20/2016 11:25:00 AM (view original):
I actually don't think it's the easiest way to win either. Most of the Dickinson copy cats aren't very successful.

most of the dickinson copy cats are the literal versions of ath/def.

Myers does get spd and usually 1/2 guys with 50+ bh 40+ pas as well as good bigs that aren't actually just ath/def and have nice rebounding. So the myers copycats fail because they actually think its just ath/def you have to get and don't 0 spd/bh/pas and no rebounding, while myers best dickinson teams usually have 1-2 acceptable bh/pas players and does not go all out for ath/def in his big men

Is this for real yo??? Because I said early earlier I said "a Fastbreak/Press team that basically recruits for only ATH and DEF sounds like the opposite of 'quirky' to me." But regardless, that's not a literal statement because you can almost always find players that have great ATH/DEF and a minimum of below average core ratings (at least in time) since they generate both frontcourt and backcourt players in that fashion.

Though, needless to say, its much easier to find PF/C with suitable core ratings than backcourt guys - which is why that team has several quality big men (in everything besides LP), but only one guard has above 40 BH and only two have above 30 PS...and guess what, those are three different players. And until last night, if not for a last second buzzer beater in the elite 8, that team would still be buzzsawing its way through a superb undefeated season.

I'm just clarifying for people who think he does actually only recruit for those 2 traits because that is literally all the copycats focus on, just reemphasizing that point not correcting you.