Posted by hughesjr on 6/5/2016 7:41:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/5/2016 4:43:00 AM (view original):
I was a jock with probably 8 to many concussions (if zero is the number you really want) and play Dungeons and Dragons. Just saying.....

OMG .. Real Dungeons and Dragons or the fake kind on a computer :)

I was both of those too .. (Jock, too many concussions, D&D with 4, 6, 8, 10, 20, etc. sided dice and rule books)

Also played Strat-O-Matic baseball, football, and basketball with 1 Red and 2 White dice. Played dozens (if not hundreds) of seasons of these games with my High School sports teams .. in, wait for it, 1977 to 1981.

Real baby, three tuesday nights a week from 7 -11.

Like I said, I have thick skin. Go ahead and keep up with the personal insults and irrational tantrums. The more clearly you demonstrate what you're about, the less tempted anyone will be to take you seriously.

Posted by dahsdebater on 6/5/2016 1:09:00 AM (view original):

Nor do I think WIS should negotiate with terrorists. As others have said, adding potential caused a much bigger exodus than this one will, and it made the game better. Making the game better needs to be their #1 priority, because no advertising push is going to matter if the game only appeals to a small cross-section of sports fans who also happen to be numberphiles. People are leaving now. New players aren't sticking now. Worlds are "emptying" now. Making the game better and more fun for more people is the primary objective, and so far this beta version is moving in the right direction.

I hope you don't run a business. I would wager that WIS has lost literally $100s of thousands as a result of the rollout of potential. It's good for those of us that are left that they did it, I think. I think, in fact, that the general consensus among the user base is that potential ultimately improved the game. But it's worth pointing out that there is a survivor's bias here - the people who didn't like potential are gone. And the user base never rebounded from that. Repeating the same mistake now, as I've said before, probably kills HD fast.

I don't run WIS, or FOXSports, and presumably neither does anyone playing this game. I have no idea what they lost, but in reality, even if it's in the 6 figures, over 5 years, you're looking at a fraction of one programmer's salary over that period. I'm not saying it's an invalid concern, it's just above my pay grade. I'm not going to decide whether I like or don't like something based on how many other people like (or irrationally hate) that thing.

The thing is yes recruiting could be a lot more realistic I don't think that is the problem we are complaining about. However the way they did it was terrible and knowing seble he won't make the changes to make it better.

• The grading scale is complete garbage.
• Assistant Coach is drunk fucktard
• Camps are garbage(not factoring in prestige from the start i knew would make them pointless)
• Level system is wack and we knew when he said the categories they would be bad(dur is useless)
• Budgets seem bad especially at D3
• 2 recruiting periods I do not think is feasible it hurts new coaches and punishes good coaches with EE's
• Preferences are stupid(really we are going to make decisions on 1 year sample of your defense or tempo?) and punishes coaches for moving jobs again
• Confernce chat being relocated was idiotic
• very low isn't important and very high probably gives to much info away easily
• no bonus cash punishes super conferences which are half the fun
• Can't even purchase multiple FSS states at once
• A lot of the color scheme is bad, purple and black look so close and the gameplan pages the white/grey is an annoyance.

Maybe if it wasn't done so terribly to begin with I would've helped out, but seble isn't going to fix a thing and its not worth learning a new system.

The biggest 3 things to me are the 2 recruiting periods, the letter scale, and the uselessness of AC/Camps

seble won't fix any of those and you have the game in the current condition which is just click scout a bunch and hope your B physical isn't C- ath/spd A dur and that the A+ ath isn't red 75.

and then I still get **** on for prestige because it weights baseline too much, still can't move up jobs because of the dumb job logic, still can't tell when a player went blue->black unless I write it down, recruit generation is still a complete joke. And we are supposed to wait another 5 years for those to get fixed?

Job logic needs a revamp. But we haven't tried recruiting yet, it could fix some problems. Scouting does not do it for me, it needs to be reshaped. Chat needs to be put where it was. Conference money is important. People go there to be with others... It's an incentive. Now, say there is no reasons to group up other than talk on the misplaced chat, it means less filled confs, more lonely owners, more lonely owners around sims getting bored and quitting. Conferences achievements is fun, individual achievements are done in mostly filled conferences.

don't fix what works.

Let's take these one by one:

• The grading scale is complete garbage - It is intended to obfuscate until you spend some budget. That's the point.
• Assistant Coach is drunk fucktard - Everyone got their wish. You scout 4 times (or a combination of camps, FSS, & scout) and you know everything. You should be happy!
• Camps are garbage(not factoring in prestige from the start i knew would make them pointless) The point of camps is to discover players. If you started "scouting" to determine precise potentials before the camps were run, you wasted your budget. That's a function of shooting your wad too soon, not the camps being bad.
• Level system is wack and we knew when he said the categories they would be bad(dur is useless) Level system? This sentence is completely incoherent. No idea what you are talking about.
• Budgets seem bad especially at D3 This is possibly a valid point, but it's incredibly easy to fix. You know the best way to win friends and influence decisions is to use phrases like "fucktard" as often as possible.
• 2 recruiting periods I do not think is feasible it hurts new coaches and punishes good coaches with EE's - Until we see how the signing logic actually works, this is just you guessing, there may be top tier recruits still available. No one knows yet. Coaches that are already in the world can recruit a little during the 2nd cycle, but coaches that are new to the world cannot. If that works properly, then it partially addresses my concern about coaches having to invest in a wasted season to take over a team they want (making rebuilding really unattractive). I agree there's a concern here, but we don't know yet.
• Preferences are stupid(really we are going to make decisions on 1 year sample of your defense or tempo?) and punishes coaches for moving jobs again What we don't know is how these will be weighted against prestige, etc. Currently, in Smith, I won the National Championship at D1...no D1 recruits liked my school...I think this will be an improvement.
• Confernce chat being relocated was idiotic Replace "idiotic" with " a mistake" and I'd agree. This resembles GD boards, which is not a good thing, but it actually renders better on a phone than on computer.
• very low isn't important and very high probably gives to much info away easily This contradicts your first point. I might prefer if the scale was tweaked to give the breaks at 7, 14, 21 & 28+, as that would be a more readable and useful scale, but the question is how much scouting do you need to do to get all the info...the answer now is 4.
• no bonus cash punishes super conferences which are half the fun maybe, but this depends upon how prestige & conference prestige factor into recruiting & preferences...which we don't know yet. Also, I think there are a number of folks who don't find super-conferences fun. So, definitely, this was a focus of the update.
• Can't even purchase multiple FSS states at once So what?
• A lot of the color scheme is bad, purple and black look so close and the gameplan pages the white/grey is an annoyance. It looks way better on phones. If you want the game to grow, they have no choice, but to make the game more functional on phones. You'd get over it in about a week.

With potential, scouting has always been a resource allocation / partial information game. What you are having trouble adjusting to is the reality that FSS was always a bit of an albatross on the budget allocation part of the game. It should be clear to everyone, that information came a little too cheap. The choice, which I'm not totally comfortable with either, is to hide the players and make coaches allocate budget to discover them. However, that's just a way of forcing all levels of the game to allocate some resources to that process. Once a few seasons are run, coaches will figure out how to do it effectively.

It's possible that D3 scouting budget is too low, but it's also likely that coaches just are horribly inefficient with their resources. It's impossible to know until the coaches adjust and try to figure it out. In the long run, scouting may be fine, once everyone's expectations are adjusted. I'm still concerned about how recruiting & signing will work. The biggest issue currently is that LeBron & Kobe could be signed for next to nothing (due to high end programs avoiding battles at all costs) and leaving the school that signed them $100,000 budget to steal someone else. Does this fix that issue or not?

Regarding the levels comment- he meant there are 4 scouting levels and the level 1 info you get sucks. During the initial announcement of a scouting update, seble shared how he was going to lump attributes into a category and give a weighted average. In that thread several people expressed concern that the way seble proposed was useless and offered ideas to improve it. They were all ignored and Seble rolled out exactly what he said initially despite no one liking it.

I think level one is really only suppose to "show" players. Complaining that the attribute lumping is stupid or whatever is missing the point of the system in my opinion.

Seble said that you will have a decent idea of how good a player is based upon level 1 info. Meaning that you could recruit off this info.

Personnaly, I can recruit at level 3. And if I run out of money, maybe level 2 but it's like getting a PR player without scouting.

Posted by rogelio on 6/5/2016 11:34:00 AM (view original):
Let's take these one by one:

• The grading scale is complete garbage - It is intended to obfuscate until you spend some budget. That's the point.
• Assistant Coach is drunk fucktard - Everyone got their wish. You scout 4 times (or a combination of camps, FSS, & scout) and you know everything. You should be happy!
• Camps are garbage(not factoring in prestige from the start i knew would make them pointless) The point of camps is to discover players. If you started "scouting" to determine precise potentials before the camps were run, you wasted your budget. That's a function of shooting your wad too soon, not the camps being bad.
• Level system is wack and we knew when he said the categories they would be bad(dur is useless) Level system? This sentence is completely incoherent. No idea what you are talking about.
• Budgets seem bad especially at D3 This is possibly a valid point, but it's incredibly easy to fix. You know the best way to win friends and influence decisions is to use phrases like "fucktard" as often as possible.
• 2 recruiting periods I do not think is feasible it hurts new coaches and punishes good coaches with EE's - Until we see how the signing logic actually works, this is just you guessing, there may be top tier recruits still available. No one knows yet. Coaches that are already in the world can recruit a little during the 2nd cycle, but coaches that are new to the world cannot. If that works properly, then it partially addresses my concern about coaches having to invest in a wasted season to take over a team they want (making rebuilding really unattractive). I agree there's a concern here, but we don't know yet.
• Preferences are stupid(really we are going to make decisions on 1 year sample of your defense or tempo?) and punishes coaches for moving jobs again What we don't know is how these will be weighted against prestige, etc. Currently, in Smith, I won the National Championship at D1...no D1 recruits liked my school...I think this will be an improvement.
• Confernce chat being relocated was idiotic Replace "idiotic" with " a mistake" and I'd agree. This resembles GD boards, which is not a good thing, but it actually renders better on a phone than on computer.
• very low isn't important and very high probably gives to much info away easily This contradicts your first point. I might prefer if the scale was tweaked to give the breaks at 7, 14, 21 & 28+, as that would be a more readable and useful scale, but the question is how much scouting do you need to do to get all the info...the answer now is 4.
• no bonus cash punishes super conferences which are half the fun maybe, but this depends upon how prestige & conference prestige factor into recruiting & preferences...which we don't know yet. Also, I think there are a number of folks who don't find super-conferences fun. So, definitely, this was a focus of the update.
• Can't even purchase multiple FSS states at once So what?
• A lot of the color scheme is bad, purple and black look so close and the gameplan pages the white/grey is an annoyance. It looks way better on phones. If you want the game to grow, they have no choice, but to make the game more functional on phones. You'd get over it in about a week.

With potential, scouting has always been a resource allocation / partial information game. What you are having trouble adjusting to is the reality that FSS was always a bit of an albatross on the budget allocation part of the game. It should be clear to everyone, that information came a little too cheap. The choice, which I'm not totally comfortable with either, is to hide the players and make coaches allocate budget to discover them. However, that's just a way of forcing all levels of the game to allocate some resources to that process. Once a few seasons are run, coaches will figure out how to do it effectively.

It's possible that D3 scouting budget is too low, but it's also likely that coaches just are horribly inefficient with their resources. It's impossible to know until the coaches adjust and try to figure it out. In the long run, scouting may be fine, once everyone's expectations are adjusted. I'm still concerned about how recruiting & signing will work. The biggest issue currently is that LeBron & Kobe could be signed for next to nothing (due to high end programs avoiding battles at all costs) and leaving the school that signed them $100,000 budget to steal someone else. Does this fix that issue or not?

TI'll respond 1by1

• he grading scale is complete garbage - It is intended to obfuscate until you spend some budget. That's the point.
  • ?A grading scale where A+ ranges from 75-100 is terrible and wipes out the usefulness of level 1-3, you have to be stupid or out of money to be using less than level 4 info because its nothing but a huge gamble, because you can get an A+ guy in almost every category and not even be D1 talent
• Assistant Coach is drunk fucktard - Everyone got their wish. You scout 4 times (or a combination of camps, FSS, & scout) and you know everything. You should be happy!
  • ?This wasn't a serious response so no point in responding
• Camps are garbage(not factoring in prestige from the start i knew would make them pointless) The point of camps is to discover players. If you started "scouting" to determine precise potentials before the camps were run, you wasted your budget. That's a function of shooting your wad too soon, not the camps being bad.
  • ?I shouldn't be getting D1 players to my D3 team and my D1 teams should not be getting D3 players, whoever is in charge of inviting players to camps is probably a drunk fucktard. I'd say this would be a good idea if players who came were realistic.
• Level system is wack and we knew when he said the categories they would be bad(dur is useless) Level system? This sentence is completely incoherent. No idea what you are talking about.
  • ?Level 1-4 system for info is good idea but poorly implemented due to the grouping and bad letter scale
• Budgets seem bad especially at D3 This is possibly a valid point, but it's incredibly easy to fix. You know the best way to win friends and influence decisions is to use phrases like "fucktard" as often as possible.
  • ?you really think seble fixes this... fucktard
• 2 recruiting periods I do not think is feasible it hurts new coaches and punishes good coaches with EE's - Until we see how the signing logic actually works, this is just you guessing, there may be top tier recruits still available. No one knows yet. Coaches that are already in the world can recruit a little during the 2nd cycle, but coaches that are new to the world cannot. If that works properly, then it partially addresses my concern about coaches having to invest in a wasted season to take over a team they want (making rebuilding really unattractive). I agree there's a concern here, but we don't know yet.
  • ?coaches moving jobs hurt too, until we know how this actual works out its negative i dont trust seble
• Preferences are stupid(really we are going to make decisions on 1 year sample of your defense or tempo?) and punishes coaches for moving jobs againWhat we don't know is how these will be weighted against prestige, etc. Currently, in Smith, I won the National Championship at D1...no D1 recruits liked my school...I think this will be an improvement.
  • ?regardless of how they are weighted they are bad ideas, really tempo so I will be out of luck for a good recruit for switching my tempo all the time, for having a strong defense only some seasons and lose out becase one season i relied on my offense. big men with sub 20 per/bh/pas wanting perimeter offenses. lack of loyalty when moving up jobs hrts you.
• Confernce chat being relocated was idiotic Replace "idiotic" with " a mistake" and I'd agree. This resembles GD boards, which is not a good thing, but it actually renders better on a phone than on computer.
  • ?an idiot made a mistake so it was idiotic
• very low isn't important and very high probably gives to much info away easily This contradicts your first point. I might prefer if the scale was tweaked to give the breaks at 7, 14, 21 & 28+, as that would be a more readable and useful scale, but the question is how much scouting do you need to do to get all the info...the answer now is 4.
  • ?not sure how this contradicts what im saying in point 1 they are unrelated items, im fine having this info level 4, but it would be better to have avg seperated into 2 categories and no low/low-. I agree it is fine if the levels are not stupid
• no bonus cash punishes super conferences which are half the fun maybe, but this depends upon how prestige & conference prestige factor into recruiting & preferences...which we don't know yet. Also, I think there are a number of folks who don't find super-conferences fun. So, definitely, this was a focus of the update.
  • ?still going to affect closely situated conferences because you have less budget to scout far away. so now we cater to ****** coaches that suck?
• Can't even purchase multiple FSS states at once So what?
  • ?not a big deal by why change it because now its just another hassle and estimating costs is harder as you can't see what the total cost is
• A lot of the color scheme is bad, purple and black look so close and the gameplan pages the white/grey is an annoyance. It looks way better on phones. If you want the game to grow, they have no choice, but to make the game more functional on phones. You'd get over it in about a week.
  • ?maybe do something that doesn't look bad on computers too? i have perfect vision and couldn't tell the difference between purple and black the whole time I was scouting.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/5/2016 12:12:00 PM (view original):
I think level one is really only suppose to "show" players. Complaining that the attribute lumping is stupid or whatever is missing the point of the system in my opinion.

This. Level 1 lumps the attributes in a way that might give you the ability to guess which division the recruit might play. That's it and that's the point. The only players for whom this information is known from the beginning are the Top 100 ranked recruits.

The fix for this issue may be to eliminate "Level 1" and just call that the "Player Summary" and have 3 levels of scouting above that, but it's really just a labeling and expectations issue. My guess is that the recruit will respond to recruiting effort identically whether his scouting level is 1 or 4. We'll see. It's hilarious that folks are inventing nefarious stories around this confusion about what will be rolled out: you will need to allocate resources towards discovering that players exist! That's "Level 1".

So, if you run a camp, then FSS (scouting service) the state from which the recruit hails, then that recruit will be at Level 2 or maybe 3. Level 2 has letter grades without potential; 3 has letter grades with potential; 4 is more information than we currently get. It might prove true that the cost structure or the function that assigns recruits to camps needs to be tweaked to get the results the game is looking for, but we just don't know that yet.

Posted by Benis on 6/5/2016 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Seble said that you will have a decent idea of how good a player is based upon level 1 info. Meaning that you could recruit off this info.

Well, then, he lied. String him up!

But then again, so what? For years, everyone's been saying how they hate the randomness of scouting reports now there is a clear pattern to scouting a player that gets EVERYTHING in 4 trips.

Isn't that a sign he's at least been listening to the customers?

"Well, then, he lied. String him up!"

That's the plan. Glad to see you're on board.

Posted by Benis on 6/5/2016 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Seble said that you will have a decent idea of how good a player is based upon level 1 info. Meaning that you could recruit off this info.

Wait, seble said or implied that level 1 info would be sufficient for recruiting a player? Link?