Re Complaints About GD's Inconsistency... Topic

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Posted by verbal_kint on 6/18/2012 2:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by norbert on 6/18/2012 1:24:00 PM (view original):
I'm pretty open to complaints about the game, but calling me a liar deserves a reply.  When did I lie to you about your Nebraska team?  If I told you something that I found out later to be wrong, I'm sure I was the one that told you I was wrong.  How did the updates make the game worse? What part of it is worse?  I have no clue what you are talking about.  The FAQ is the FAQ from when I took over the game and the way things work in the engine currently many ratings are averaged together for many different things, but HANDS is weighted more in the average rating for receiving so technically it is most important for catching the ball.  The problem is that it is not independently a factor in catching the ball.  All I can do is work on making a better game and if you don't think I can, then fine, you haven't really seen anything from me so I get it, but to call me a liar and say I only care about taking people's money is just flat out insulting.
This is an absolutely terrible explanation.  Even if you take the average HND of the WR on the field, they're terrible as a whole.  Please try again.
...and thus the reason for the next few months of working on the engine.  I'm not sure where it's getting lost in translation that I feel the current engine is too random as well.  This particular focus on the Hands ratings and my explanation of why they are too random can be broken down into several components.  One is that the ratings are diluted by averaging them together so one particularly low rating isn't going to have as much effect as if you looked at it separately, yet in the formula of seeing if a ball is caught, Hands is weighted highest of those ratings, so technically it is more important.  But the other component of the discussion is that the results are too random and this is where no matter how much Hands is factored into the chance to catch a ball, the results won't seem to reflect it.

I've talked about this before, but from reviewing how the engine is working in determining results, the problem of randomness lies in the way it determines the results.  Basically it calculates some chance (a value between 0.0 and 1.0) and then gets a random number (between 0.0 and 1.0) and if the random number is less than the chance, the result happens.  For instance, in the case of a catch (or drop), it will average a bunch of ratings together for the receiver and use a formula to come up with the chance of the catch, like 0.9 (not actual values).  Let's say the player's ratings are worse so the chance drops to 0.87.  You might say a 3% drop in the chance is significant, but since we are only checking this a limited number of times, the difference between 0.87 and 0.9 is not that significant.  So someone with the 0.87 chance might actually perform better than the player with the 0.9 chance.

What I am working on now is to change the engine to replace these types of checks with a more deterministic result check based on team and player match ups, and in some cases looking at individual players skills.  There will still have to be random checks.  A player thrown to 10 times won't either drop every pass or catch every pass.  But you should see a player with lower Hands drop more balls than a player with higher Hands.

It will be difficult to pretty much rewrite the engine and get games playing through with the changes and not expect some problems, but that's why we are going to have an open beta.  The other difficulty is in trying to update the pbp so that you can see some of these effects and better evaluate your team.
6/18/2012 3:08 PM
Posted by verbal_kint on 6/18/2012 2:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by norbert on 6/18/2012 1:24:00 PM (view original):
I'm pretty open to complaints about the game, but calling me a liar deserves a reply.  When did I lie to you about your Nebraska team?  If I told you something that I found out later to be wrong, I'm sure I was the one that told you I was wrong.  How did the updates make the game worse? What part of it is worse?  I have no clue what you are talking about.  The FAQ is the FAQ from when I took over the game and the way things work in the engine currently many ratings are averaged together for many different things, but HANDS is weighted more in the average rating for receiving so technically it is most important for catching the ball.  The problem is that it is not independently a factor in catching the ball.  All I can do is work on making a better game and if you don't think I can, then fine, you haven't really seen anything from me so I get it, but to call me a liar and say I only care about taking people's money is just flat out insulting.
This is an absolutely terrible explanation.  Even if you take the average HND of the WR on the field, they're terrible as a whole.  Please try again.
I think what he was saying is that HAN is weighted into the *individual receivers'* rating, so even low HAN can be made irrelevant by high everything else - SPD, ELU, GI, (TEC?).

Not that all the receivers' HAN that are on the field are averaged together...
6/18/2012 3:09 PM
Also, it's not taking the average HNDs of the players on the field, it's taking the average of ATH, SPD, ELU, GI, TECH, and HNDs for a player in determining his chance of catching a ball.  HNDs is weighted more, but a player can get away with having one low rating and it not affecting them that much.

EDIT: yeah, what gt_deuce said


6/18/2012 3:10 PM
IMO, the problem isn't that the engine is too random, the problem is that the engine is too consistent.  Regardless of talent or any other factor, play outcomes have a ridiculously tight spread.  i.e. even with terrible HND, WR still perform very, very closely to WR with great HND.  

Here's a somewhat related question:  Since you worked on parts of the engine, why didn't you or anyone else question how play results were determined?  It makes little, if any sense to the end user.  It also might have prevented years of headaches trying to defend this and having to almost completely rewrite the engine.

6/18/2012 3:30 PM
Norbert, in case you haven't noticed it, there's a significant demographic in this forum that isn't going to be happy no matter WHAT you do. You can usually spot them by the inconsistencies they show from topic to topic. One minute JConte's the antichrist, the next post is longing for the "old engine". One season everything's a roll of the dice, but let them win a NC, and it's "nothing but skill, baby". Unfortunately, we've found that in some cases, the louder they whine, the more likely it is that they'll stay (PLEASE don't let this turn into a valid marketing strategy).
At the same time, you have to understand that we're in the dark here. When strange things happen in a game, we can't break down film to figure out what happened. What makes it worse is we're all college football fans, meaning that when it comes to OUR teams, we're not the most logical (or even rational) judges of what SHOULD happen. Most college football fans are like Cubs fans in that regard.
So, please overlook the more irritating comments of my fellow coaches, and continue doing what you've been doing. Just keep us posted so we don't go totally bat-$hit crazy while we're waiting for GD 3.0.
Oh, by the way, while you're under the hood, could you teach the computer how to spell "update"? "Updaete" just doesn't inspire much confidence.
6/18/2012 4:02 PM
  It's a little known fact but Having a High Hands rating means the player is a good dancer   ! (in the new update it will mean he can pat his head and rub his tummy at the same time).
6/18/2012 4:15 PM
Posted by mojolad on 6/18/2012 4:15:00 PM (view original):
  It's a little known fact but Having a High Hands rating means the player is a good dancer   ! (in the new update it will mean he can pat his head and rub his tummy at the same time).

also has to have high agility to do a piourette

6/18/2012 4:57 PM
Posted by scrodz on 6/18/2012 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Norbert, in case you haven't noticed it, there's a significant demographic in this forum that isn't going to be happy no matter WHAT you do. You can usually spot them by the inconsistencies they show from topic to topic. One minute JConte's the antichrist, the next post is longing for the "old engine". One season everything's a roll of the dice, but let them win a NC, and it's "nothing but skill, baby". Unfortunately, we've found that in some cases, the louder they whine, the more likely it is that they'll stay (PLEASE don't let this turn into a valid marketing strategy).
At the same time, you have to understand that we're in the dark here. When strange things happen in a game, we can't break down film to figure out what happened. What makes it worse is we're all college football fans, meaning that when it comes to OUR teams, we're not the most logical (or even rational) judges of what SHOULD happen. Most college football fans are like Cubs fans in that regard.
So, please overlook the more irritating comments of my fellow coaches, and continue doing what you've been doing. Just keep us posted so we don't go totally bat-$hit crazy while we're waiting for GD 3.0.
Oh, by the way, while you're under the hood, could you teach the computer how to spell "update"? "Updaete" just doesn't inspire much confidence.
JConte is the "antichrist" because he sprung an unannounced complete change of the engine and gameplay and on top of that, it was wasn't beta tested at all.

Guys want the old engine back because before he f'd it up royally, the gameplay and ratings played in the engine like it was supposed to. The only imbalance that needed fixing was lowering the beginnning ratings of RBs.


Norbert needs to fix this pronto for his remaining customers.

Im no one special and Im leaving because I already found another game worth my time and effort but for the sake of everybody staying, it needs to happen and be worth a damn.
6/18/2012 5:22 PM
So, please overlook the more irritating comments of my fellow coaches----I think this is a very valid request, and some of us hope you have a thick skin so this doesn't get to you.  Defending yourself is acceptable, explanations are welcomed.  Keep up the postings so we can enjoy the ride. 
6/18/2012 5:48 PM
JConte is the "antichrist" because he sprung an unannounced complete change of the engine and gameplay and on top of that, it was wasn't beta tested at all. 

Guys want the old engine back because before he f'd it up royally, the gameplay and ratings played in the engine like it was supposed to. The only imbalance that needed fixing was lowering the beginnning ratings of RBs. 

+1

If he made the old engine, which I believe he did, he knows what he's doing, he made a very fun game.  Why the F he followed that up with this monstrosity is beyond me.

I have full faith in Norbert's ability to remake this game fun again, I'm just very disheartened in the amount of time it's taken and will still take, which leaves us playing this non-sense until then.

6/18/2012 5:58 PM
I agree, bhouska. I would be amenable to credits for time served since the apocalypse.
6/18/2012 7:50 PM
I wanna full scholarship to Hogwarts Academy !
6/18/2012 7:59 PM
updaete being spelled like this in the coaches corner is a security measure against javascripting a program onto the server. Apparently, "update" is a java command or atleast this is what I was told about 2 years ago.


6/18/2012 8:00 PM
OK I'm the dummy here.  I would think that in order to CATCH the ball, Hands would be the ONLY thing that mattered on the WRs end.  MAYBE Athleticism as he may have to go up or down for the ball or stretch out.  But for catching the ball Hands should be the end all.  As for how OPEN a WR gets....that should have to do with Speed, Elusiveness, Game Instinct and Technique.  As to running with the ball after the catch it should be Elusiveness, Strength, and Speed.  As to whether or not the ball gets to an area that can be caught should be on the QBs shoulders.  Since 100 is the top and 0 is the bottem, it seems to me that a guy with 100 should catch 100% of the catchable balls a QB throws and a guy with 0 shouldn't catch it if you handed it to him.  So first thing first is the QB has to throw the ball.  IF he has to scramble then the WRs GI should play a huge part in his getting open for him.  But let's just say it is a normal play.  The QB has time to throw and goes through all the calculations and delivers the ball on target.  IF he can thread the needle then a WR with a 100 hands, open or not as it is on the QBs ability to make the throw, will catch it.  If he has a Hands of 30 and the QB makes the same throw he should have a 30% chance of catching it.  The game needs to look at 1) the QBs ability to make the throw.  2) the ability of the WR to get open which is directly related to the QBs ability to put the ball in a catchable place.  3) The WRs ability to catch (Hands)  I don't care how open or how well the QB can throw, if a WR can't catch the ball then it shouldn't be caught.  Since 100 is best and 0 is worst, the numbers should be directly proportional to the percentage of catchable balls caught.  AND THEY ARE NOT.  If a WR with 30 Hands has 10 balls thrown to him 7 should be dropped.  Which means we need another stat to tell us how many catchable balls he has had thrown to him.  Right now a WR with 30 can have 10 balls thrown his way, catch 8 and the other 2 were really throw aways with no drops.

Sorry but I agree the old game was better and could have been ideal with a few tweaks and this game is FAR behind it.  I am probably one of the few here that thinks Conte just changed his name to Norbert as it seems we are getting the same run around as before.  Sorry Norbert if it isn't true but that is how it is coming acrossed to me.  Your answers are not much different than Contes were as far as explanations.  To me it looks like the same Circus but just a different tent.  I'll probably get deleted and banned for saying that.
6/18/2012 8:29 PM (edited)
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Re Complaints About GD's Inconsistency... Topic

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