Do Brussels sprouts taste good? Topic

dahsdebater
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OTOH, I would characterize swamp's assessment that "the vast majority of Americans oppose Defense cuts" is extremely misleading.  In the sense that it just isn't true...

Actually, I don't think there's any sense in which that statement could be considered true.  I guess swamp hangs out with a bunch of like-minded people too much of the time and somehow assumes their opinions are representative of the country as a whole.

3/12/2013 2:48 PM
swamphawk22
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Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 1:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/12/2013 12:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/12/2013 11:45:00 AM (view original):
That isnt true.

On Defense most Americans are for the Republican side. Even in the current crisis the vast majority of Americans oppose Defense cuts.

Most Americans support less government and lower taxes. The left creates ways to end run that. Department of Education allows the feds to expand their power over schools. They can tax and spend on a grand scale and not have to show any results. If this were on a state level it would never work.

Americans support the right to K&B arms. You could never get most states to ban assualt weapons. The feds can.

Yet we can look at election results and see that the majority of voters support the left.
Obama won. We can argue why but it cannot be argued with. The Senate is controlled by the Dems.

Most governors are Republican. Most state houses are Republican.

The US House is Republican, by a solid margin. And there are a large number of so called "Tea Party" members.

So how exactly can we see a left trend?

The house is heavily gerrymandered. Democrats actually got more votes in the house than Republicans. I think Democrats would have to lead by something like 7 percentage points to regain the house.
What really happens is there is a handful of highly populated districts that vote solid Democrat.

In fly over territory Republicans win.

Again you are trying to say that elections show that there is a left wing trend.

Also with the Tea Party there are more modeate Dems than Moderate Pubs.

So again more to the right.

If Romney had beat Obama no one could make a case for the Dems actually being the dominant group.
3/12/2013 2:51 PM
dahsdebater
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Poll

Older but bigger poll

Gallup poll


3/12/2013 2:54 PM
dahsdebater
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So basically swamp, in your last post, you're saying that if more people were Republicans nobody would say there are more Democrats?  Presumably that would be what would have to happen to have elected Romney, if we really simplify the problem...

Voter registration records indicate that more people in this country are Democrats than Republicans.  And voter registration rates are much better in the suburbs and rural areas than urban areas.  Given that urban areas trend heavily Democratic, it seems overwhelmingly likely that the true national political affiliation leans even further left than voter registration numbers would indicate.  I don't think you can win an argument that the Republicans are the majority group, given that it is basically an objective fact that they aren't.

3/12/2013 2:57 PM
stinenavy
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They are heavily populated with democrats because the districts are drawn that way. Gerrymandered.

Source for your moderate Dems/ moderate Pubs claim?

Romney didn't beat Obama. He lost quite handily by the electoral college.
3/12/2013 2:58 PM
swamphawk22
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1 Romney did lose. The fact is that a handful of votes could have changed that, as is normal in a close election. A handfull of votes could have changed both Bush wins and Kennedy's win in 60.

2 And if that happened no one would think the ideals of the left were the popular opinion.

3 So when I said America leans right you said the elections dont indiacte that. When I point out that most elections go Republican you then said that my elections dont count because they are in smaller districts and it is all gerrymandering. Wow.

4 People vote for partys that may not represent everything they believe for a single issue. Abortion, race, taxes, etc. When you go issue by issue the Right wins.
3/12/2013 3:33 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Would it be fair to say "If you remove the opinion of those in the military and/or on social programs, that more people would NOT support cutting defense than social programs"?

Shocker that this was ignored.

Remove the people directly involved with getting free stuff and the views on social programs will change dramatically. 

3/12/2013 3:40 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Would it be fair to say "If you remove the opinion of those in the military and/or on social programs, that more people would NOT support cutting defense than social programs"?

Shocker that this was ignored.

Remove the people directly involved with getting free stuff and the views on social programs will change dramatically. 

What social programs are you talking about?
3/12/2013 4:02 PM
MikeT23
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You, sir, yes, you.  The one using his WIC card right now.  Do you think social programs should be cut?  No?  OK,

You, sir, yes, you.  The one in full military dress about to board a plane to Afghanistan. Do your think defense spending should be cut?   No, OK, got it.
3/12/2013 4:03 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Would it be fair to say "If you remove the opinion of those in the military and/or on social programs, that more people would NOT support cutting defense than social programs"?

Shocker that this was ignored.

Remove the people directly involved with getting free stuff and the views on social programs will change dramatically. 

What social programs are you talking about?
Which one do you want to talk about?   Once you decide, let's find some people who benefit from it and ask if it should be cut.
3/12/2013 4:03 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 4:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Would it be fair to say "If you remove the opinion of those in the military and/or on social programs, that more people would NOT support cutting defense than social programs"?

Shocker that this was ignored.

Remove the people directly involved with getting free stuff and the views on social programs will change dramatically. 

What social programs are you talking about?
Which one do you want to talk about?   Once you decide, let's find some people who benefit from it and ask if it should be cut.
OK, medicare.
3/12/2013 4:06 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by swamphawk22 on 3/12/2013 3:33:00 PM (view original):
1 Romney did lose. The fact is that a handful of votes could have changed that, as is normal in a close election. A handfull of votes could have changed both Bush wins and Kennedy's win in 60.

2 And if that happened no one would think the ideals of the left were the popular opinion.

3 So when I said America leans right you said the elections dont indiacte that. When I point out that most elections go Republican you then said that my elections dont count because they are in smaller districts and it is all gerrymandering. Wow.

4 People vote for partys that may not represent everything they believe for a single issue. Abortion, race, taxes, etc. When you go issue by issue the Right wins.
Handful/several million. Sure, that's the same.

Sure, in an alternate universe, where the Republican got more votes, people wouldn't think that Democrats were more popular. They would think Republicans were more popular. Because that would be reality.

National elections do go Democrat. Even in the House, where Republicans have a majority, Democrats still got more votes.

So people vote for a party because of an important issue. When you go by issues the...right...wins??? Then why isn't the right winning elections?
3/12/2013 4:11 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 4:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 4:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Would it be fair to say "If you remove the opinion of those in the military and/or on social programs, that more people would NOT support cutting defense than social programs"?

Shocker that this was ignored.

Remove the people directly involved with getting free stuff and the views on social programs will change dramatically. 

What social programs are you talking about?
Which one do you want to talk about?   Once you decide, let's find some people who benefit from it and ask if it should be cut.
OK, medicare.
Who should we not ask about cuts to medicare?
3/12/2013 4:11 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 4:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 4:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 4:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 3/12/2013 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/12/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Would it be fair to say "If you remove the opinion of those in the military and/or on social programs, that more people would NOT support cutting defense than social programs"?

Shocker that this was ignored.

Remove the people directly involved with getting free stuff and the views on social programs will change dramatically. 

What social programs are you talking about?
Which one do you want to talk about?   Once you decide, let's find some people who benefit from it and ask if it should be cut.
OK, medicare.
Who should we not ask about cuts to medicare?
I figured we'd ask someone who directly benefits from it right now.    So I called my parents.   They said "No, I don't think medicare should be cut."

Next.
3/12/2013 4:14 PM
bad_luck
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I think I've lost your point. Are you arguing that we shouldn't ask people directly impacted by the program about cuts to the program?
3/12/2013 4:17 PM
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