DOMA & Prop 8 Topic

bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/14/2013 12:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 5/14/2013 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 5/14/2013 11:41:00 AM (view original):
I don't have a specific concern about the legalization of crack but I don't think it's a good idea.
I think you could make a reasonable argument that crack is harmful. Same can't be said about gay marriage. Nice try, though.
Pretty sure crack is harmful.    Do you think people who don't do crack now would suddenly start smoking crack? 
Nope. I think crack is illegal because of a misguided war on drugs. It's also very harmful.

How is this relevant to gay marriage?
5/14/2013 12:02 PM
MikeT23
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It's your argument.    "Do you think straight people are suddenly going to get gay married because it's legal?" compared to "Do you think who don't smoke crack are suddenly going to smoke crack because it's legal?"

The answer to both is "no" but you say "Legalize this one but not the other".
5/14/2013 12:08 PM
bad_luck
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I don't have a problem with legalizing crack (or any other drug).
5/14/2013 12:26 PM
MikeT23
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Well, I think that explains why you can't comprehend anyone opposing SSM.    It appears that you think pretty much everything should be legal. 

5/14/2013 12:31 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/14/2013 12:31:00 PM (view original):

Well, I think that explains why you can't comprehend anyone opposing SSM.    It appears that you think pretty much everything should be legal. 

So you think crack should be illegal. Why?
5/14/2013 12:32 PM
MikeT23
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Accessibility will lead to more use.   It may be a small percentage but there are people who don't do drugs because they're illegal.   And, quite frankly, they're not easy to acquire unless you're living in that culture.   Making them legal, available and quality-controlled would lead to more drug use. 

On the plus side, the government could profix from legalization and monitor the users.  Of course, that's kind of Big Brother-y but I don't think you'd mind covert operations to take out drug users before they become a health issue for society. 
5/14/2013 12:43 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/14/2013 12:43:00 PM (view original):
Accessibility will lead to more use.   It may be a small percentage but there are people who don't do drugs because they're illegal.   And, quite frankly, they're not easy to acquire unless you're living in that culture.   Making them legal, available and quality-controlled would lead to more drug use. 

On the plus side, the government could profix from legalization and monitor the users.  Of course, that's kind of Big Brother-y but I don't think you'd mind covert operations to take out drug users before they become a health issue for society. 
Ok, so you see a real harm in allowing legalized crack - increased use.

What's the harm in allowing gay marriage? Certainly not an increase in gays.
5/14/2013 12:46 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/14/2013 12:08:00 PM (view original):
It's your argument.    "Do you think straight people are suddenly going to get gay married because it's legal?" compared to "Do you think who don't smoke crack are suddenly going to smoke crack because it's legal?"

The answer to both is "no" but you say "Legalize this one but not the other".
So the answer isn't no to both. Good to know.
5/14/2013 12:47 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 5/14/2013 12:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 5/14/2013 12:43:00 PM (view original):
Accessibility will lead to more use.   It may be a small percentage but there are people who don't do drugs because they're illegal.   And, quite frankly, they're not easy to acquire unless you're living in that culture.   Making them legal, available and quality-controlled would lead to more drug use. 

On the plus side, the government could profix from legalization and monitor the users.  Of course, that's kind of Big Brother-y but I don't think you'd mind covert operations to take out drug users before they become a health issue for society. 
Ok, so you see a real harm in allowing legalized crack - increased use.

What's the harm in allowing gay marriage? Certainly not an increase in gays.
Don't use "certainly" so surely.

It's not an argument I want to make but, yeah, I think we could see an increase in gay activity by making it more "mainstream".   We've already discussed asexual people changing their status and bisexuals making a choice.   You agreed that both CERTAINLY could happen.  A more permissive view on homosexuality could CERTAINLY lead to an increase in homosexuality.     Now, for why I don't like to make that argument, I CERTAINLY don't want someone "going straight" because it's the easier path.   I'm sure that's happened in the past and will likely happen in the future.   I'd CERTAINLY rather have one choose a sexual partner(s) that they can be happy with than make others unhappy because they chose what was "acceptable". 

There are many reasons why I don't think a more permissive society is what we should strive for but I'll focus on homosexuality for the moment.   I'll refer back to the "Suck one **** and you're a ********** for life" joke.   Like it or not, there's still a macho locker room thought process with most men(and, for this example, near men).  Pretty much everyone did some dumb **** in their teens.  So take a sexually confused 15 y/o boy and throw him into a "Gay is OK" enviroment.   Mix in some drugs/alcohol.   Give him a gay experience.   Fast forward two years when he's decided he's prefers women.    Then put him in a locker room with the "Suck one **** and you're a ********** for life" crowd.   I don't think it goes well.  

The time may come when men can "change their minds" but the time is not now.    Maybe this is a chicken/egg situation.   Maybe we don't get the "Gay is OK" enviroment without legalizing gay marriage.    Maybe legalizing gay marriage creates more situations like I outlined.   Maybe we just need to wait for homosexuality to become more acceptable in all walks of life before jumping on the gay marriage bandwagon.   I don't know.   But I'd like to. 
5/14/2013 2:04 PM
bad_luck
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Wow, bis, that looks like a dump truck full of nonsense.
5/14/2013 2:08 PM
burnsy483
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Mike, I'd argue that the good for the homosexual community vastly outweighs the concerns you have.  Allowing gay marriage and encouraging the "gay is ok" environment on our society does much more good than bad.  And by encouraging "gay is ok" you'll ultimately have less of those locker room experiences you're describing.
5/14/2013 2:12 PM
MikeT23
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Except it's not.    We don't live in your fantasy world.  We live in the real world.   There's a reason why SSM isn't legal everywhere.   People don't approve of it.   And, for the most part, those same people don't approve of homosexuality.   It's just a fact. 
5/14/2013 2:13 PM
bad_luck
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Also, I don't think "you'd like to [know]." I think you like sticking your head in the sand and pretending that you don't know that allowing gays to marry isn't going to make more people gay.

Some people dont like gays. You know who's problem that is? "Some people's," not gays.
5/14/2013 2:13 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 5/14/2013 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Mike, I'd argue that the good for the homosexual community vastly outweighs the concerns you have.  Allowing gay marriage and encouraging the "gay is ok" environment on our society does much more good than bad.  And by encouraging "gay is ok" you'll ultimately have less of those locker room experiences you're describing.
Maybe, maybe not.   Right now, in today, I think "maybe not".   I'll admit that I'm 50 and not around the gay enviroment.   But I probably know as many in the 20-30 age group as I do the 50ish.   And, for the most part, many are "Meh.  Whatever.  Just don't tell me about the great time Joe and George had on the couch last week."   But some are "******* freaks.  Try a woman, why dontcha?"
5/14/2013 2:17 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/14/2013 2:17:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 5/14/2013 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Mike, I'd argue that the good for the homosexual community vastly outweighs the concerns you have.  Allowing gay marriage and encouraging the "gay is ok" environment on our society does much more good than bad.  And by encouraging "gay is ok" you'll ultimately have less of those locker room experiences you're describing.
Maybe, maybe not.   Right now, in today, I think "maybe not".   I'll admit that I'm 50 and not around the gay enviroment.   But I probably know as many in the 20-30 age group as I do the 50ish.   And, for the most part, many are "Meh.  Whatever.  Just don't tell me about the great time Joe and George had on the couch last week."   But some are "******* freaks.  Try a woman, why dontcha?"
True. When they were considering equal rights for blacks, it definitely mattered that there were a bunch of racists that were going to hate blacks no matter what. We definitely should have catered to the racists.
5/14/2013 2:20 PM
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