Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
You don't clearly see his hands or the gun in the video at the time the police car arrived.  I assume the cops did.  They pulled right up to the gazebo, he was already moving in the direction of the car, only a few feet from the car, and they shot him.  I would assume that they felt an immediate threat based on what they saw in the moments at which they arrived at the scene.

It's tragic.  A 12 year old kid is dead for playing with a toy.

If mom and dad had rules in place, and the kid had followed the rules, this wouldn't have happened.

Let's throw out a hypothetical. Let's say your son disobeyed your toy gun rules and took the gun to the park and did exactly what Rice did. Do you think the cops would have jumped out of the car and shot him on the spot, no questions asked?

I have no idea what the cops in my town would have done.  There's not really any gun violence in my town.

But hypothetically . . . I'd feel horrible that my son was shot, and would wonder why he suddenly disobeyed rules that were so clearly stated and followed up until that day.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

A couple things here.  I actually don't blame anyone but the 911 dispatcher. It's really a ****** situation.

1) It appears that the gun wasn't Tamir's, but a friend's toy gun, given to him to play with not long before 911 was called. So I protest the idea of "****** parenting" being the problem here, if that's true.

2) The 911 caller told the dispatcher that Tamir "was probably a juvenile" and was holding "probably a toy gun."  It seems the 911 dispatcher did not relay this information to the cops, so what they had was probably something along the lines of "suspect waving gun at people in park." 

3) I don't know how far cops are supposed to pull up to suspects with guns; maybe it is farther than that. But Tamir Rice, while just 12, was 5'7" and 195 pounds, so he didn't necessarily look like a child. If I'm a cop, and I pull up towards a suspect, and he picks up a gun off the ground, puts it in his pants, and starts walking up towards me, when I tell him to put his hands in the air, and he reaches his for gun, there's a very good chance I'm shooting him, and I'm thinking that's justified.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:39:00 PM (view original):
I'll challenge that "the police are clearly in the wrong here".  There's nothing clear about it.  I know you love to blame the police and never, ever want to blame the victim.

And the blame is shared.  The kid is to blame for doing something stupid.  But he's just a kid.  Twelve year olds are not the most responsible human beings on the planet.  Mom and dad get the lion's share of the blame for letting their kid wander around the streets of Cleveland brandishing a realistic looking toy weapon.

"Clearly in the wrong," refers to driving up right next to Rice. The police put themselves in that tough position. They are to blame. Sure, Rice shouldn't have had the gun in the park, but it isn't like he was holding anyone hostage. The police had literally nothing to lose by staying back and assessing the situation from a safe distance.

If the police follow procedure and stay back, what Rice does with this hands in the 2.1 seconds before he gets shot doesn't matter because the police are far enough away that they don't have to simultaneously ***** the situation while jumping out of a car and shooting.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 1:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):
You don't clearly see his hands or the gun in the video at the time the police car arrived.  I assume the cops did.  They pulled right up to the gazebo, he was already moving in the direction of the car, only a few feet from the car, and they shot him.  I would assume that they felt an immediate threat based on what they saw in the moments at which they arrived at the scene.

It's tragic.  A 12 year old kid is dead for playing with a toy.

If mom and dad had rules in place, and the kid had followed the rules, this wouldn't have happened.

Let's throw out a hypothetical. Let's say your son disobeyed your toy gun rules and took the gun to the park and did exactly what Rice did. Do you think the cops would have jumped out of the car and shot him on the spot, no questions asked?

I have no idea what the cops in my town would have done.  There's not really any gun violence in my town.

But hypothetically . . . I'd feel horrible that my son was shot, and would wonder why he suddenly disobeyed rules that were so clearly stated and followed up until that day.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

In a town with gun violence? There's a good chance of that.

You're obviously alluding to the idea that Rice is black, was profiled as dangerous, and then shot.  Really no way to know. 

Cleveland.com:

"The tactics were very poor," said David Thomas, senior research fellow for the Police Foundation. "If the driver would have stopped a distance away so that the primary officer wasn't right there to get involved in shooting, it may have played out differently."

Surveillance footage shows a cruiser driven by sixth-year officer Frank Garmback cut across the grass in front of a gazebo at a West Side Cleveland park and roll within feet of Tamir, and first-year officer Timothy Loehmann shooting Tamir within seconds from an open passenger door.

OK, so it's the cop's fault.

As it always is with you.

Business as usual.

Carry on.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 1:55:00 PM (view original):
A couple things here.  I actually don't blame anyone but the 911 dispatcher. It's really a ****** situation.

1) It appears that the gun wasn't Tamir's, but a friend's toy gun, given to him to play with not long before 911 was called. So I protest the idea of "****** parenting" being the problem here, if that's true.

2) The 911 caller told the dispatcher that Tamir "was probably a juvenile" and was holding "probably a toy gun."  It seems the 911 dispatcher did not relay this information to the cops, so what they had was probably something along the lines of "suspect waving gun at people in park." 

3) I don't know how far cops are supposed to pull up to suspects with guns; maybe it is farther than that. But Tamir Rice, while just 12, was 5'7" and 195 pounds, so he didn't necessarily look like a child. If I'm a cop, and I pull up towards a suspect, and he picks up a gun off the ground, puts it in his pants, and starts walking up towards me, when I tell him to put his hands in the air, and he reaches his for gun, there's a very good chance I'm shooting him, and I'm thinking that's justified.

If it was a friend's toy gun, then there's still some "parenting" fault in play.  Now it's the friend's parents who should get the blame.

Also, the police tapes from the scene, immediately after the shooting, indicate that the victim was believed to be around 20 years old based on his physical appearance.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/16/2014 2:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 1:55:00 PM (view original):
A couple things here.  I actually don't blame anyone but the 911 dispatcher. It's really a ****** situation.

1) It appears that the gun wasn't Tamir's, but a friend's toy gun, given to him to play with not long before 911 was called. So I protest the idea of "****** parenting" being the problem here, if that's true.

2) The 911 caller told the dispatcher that Tamir "was probably a juvenile" and was holding "probably a toy gun."  It seems the 911 dispatcher did not relay this information to the cops, so what they had was probably something along the lines of "suspect waving gun at people in park." 

3) I don't know how far cops are supposed to pull up to suspects with guns; maybe it is farther than that. But Tamir Rice, while just 12, was 5'7" and 195 pounds, so he didn't necessarily look like a child. If I'm a cop, and I pull up towards a suspect, and he picks up a gun off the ground, puts it in his pants, and starts walking up towards me, when I tell him to put his hands in the air, and he reaches his for gun, there's a very good chance I'm shooting him, and I'm thinking that's justified.

If it was a friend's toy gun, then there's still some "parenting" fault in play.  Now it's the friend's parents who should get the blame.

Also, the police tapes from the scene, immediately after the shooting, indicate that the victim was believed to be around 20 years old based on his physical appearance.

So you don't think the police share any blame?

It must be nice to trust the government so completely.

If the police were supposed to pull up further away, ok. It's ******, but I wouldn't call it criminal. 

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 2:12:00 PM (view original):
If the police were supposed to pull up further away, ok. It's ******, but I wouldn't call it criminal. 

If this shooting isn't criminal, is any mistake made by a police officer criminal?

How about this guy?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 2:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 2:12:00 PM (view original):
If the police were supposed to pull up further away, ok. It's ******, but I wouldn't call it criminal. 

If this shooting isn't criminal, is any mistake made by a police officer criminal?

Yes, I believe what the NYPD officer did to Garner was criminal. He was not a threat, excessive, dangerous force was used in arresting Garner, and that led to his death.

Rice was considered a threat because he walked towards the car and reached for his toy gun when police approached.

I suppose I can put on my tin-foil hat and blame the police for everything anytime something like this happens.

They were called to investigate a person wielding a gun, who was pointing it at people and acting in an erratic manner.  They arrived on the scene, and as they were pulling up the suspect started approaching them.  Exactly where his hands are doing, or where the gun was, we can't tell.  But they reacted to the situation that was presented to them.

Unless you want to suggest that while they were hanging out at the donut shop they decided they were going to kill the next black person they saw.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 2:14:00 PM (view original):
How about this guy?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

 

Yea, that's criminal.

IMO, the police in the Rice killing were justified because they believed Rice had a gun, and was aiming it at people. They believed him to be dangerous.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/16/2014 2:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/16/2014 2:14:00 PM (view original):
How about this guy?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/

 

Yea, that's criminal.

IMO, the police in the Rice killing were justified because they believed Rice had a gun, and was aiming it at people. They believed him to be dangerous.

The cop in SC believed he was in danger, too. He didn't decide, "I'm going to go shoot a black person today."