Sorry, it took me awhile to write that post. Please address my enforcement concerns.

Shobob, First 3 RL days should be more than enough to pare down the roster, and at this point we should all have a pretty good idea who we are keeping with our squads (the only people at a disadvantage would be the final few owners and you could delay the rollover by a day to give them time to look over their squads). By ensuring everyone cuts at the first day of Free Agency it actually helps with enforcement as it gives you and your deputies (and if you still need them I will help you if needed) more time to ensure compliance by sending messages. This gives you 4 real world days to make sure each team is in compliance with the rule and send them reminders before the situation becomes unresolvable at the Roster Freeze.

I would prefer to go to 20 at the start of FA and then it's open game, but would except jkenned's proposal.

Shobob, patience is a virtue.  What's your rush here?  I'd rather make sure we're all on the same page with our common goals rather than rush into something.  Things sometimes tend to clusterfuck when they are rushed without thinking things through.

Now that I understand what jkenned is proposing (I misunderstood, at first), I think there's some merit to it.  It forces owners to make decisions earlier (at the start of FA), thus making more players available on the WW during the FA period.  As players are claimed, other players need to be DFA/waived to make room for them on the 20/40, etc.  So the WW and claims could potentially be pretty busy during those 4 days of FA as everybody continues to tweak their rosters and position themselves for R5 freeze day and the R5 draft.  Anything that involves more decision making and more player movement actually strengthens the theme.

The monkey wrench in the machinery now is the enforcement, because the tasks that you and the appointed "deputies" would be doing on R5 day would now need to be done a couple of times: on the first day of FA, throughout FA, and on R5 day.  Nothing changes with the rules, the enforcement, or the punishment for infractions.  It's just that now, it needs to be done multiple times.

Here's what I suggest.  Three checkpoints for compliance:

Checkpoint 1: the evening of the first day of free agency, let's say at around the PM2 cycle (7pm ET).  The commish and the deputies verify that everybody is in compliance, and notifies the violators.  It doesn't really need to be before or at the start of FA day, because FA's have not yet started to sign.  Plus it gives everybody an extra day to prepare (one of your concerns).

Checkpoint 2: the evening (PM2 cycle) of the third day of free agency.

Checkpoint 3: anytime during R5 freeze day.

Thoughts?

I know I'm a newcomer to this. But now that I've read through this discussion, I agree with jkenned's proposal. I think the 20 player limit should be applied at the start of the FA signing period. Those are your 20 keepers, and the rest are open to the free agent bidding war. I'm also thinking about ronazbill's proposal that would let people sign FA's and go over the 20 players after day 1 of the FA signing period.

Just my 2 cents. I'm not trying to come in here and change what you guys have been building. I'll adhere to what you all decide.

I think we need to a take a step back and figure out the GOAL of the 20 man limit?  Because the R5 draft is not where the talent will be redistributed, it will be FA and the waiver wire. The talent that will be redistributed at the R5 draft will be better minor league players than with the current system.  

All players that have been added to the 40 man, must be passed through waivers to be taken off the 40 man (correct?).  So why is the R5 draft the deadline we care about?  I have said this before, have a date (day before FA as a possibility) as the deadline to get to the 20 man limit. Then all eligible players will be exposed to waivers and FA at the same time.  Then it becomes roster building time.  If someone signs 15 players during FA, great, everybody had a chance to sign them.  I just think it screws up FA if you have the deadline at the R5 draft rather than the beginning of FA.  Also, there cannot be multiple places of compliance.  ONCE.  We are making it difficult already.

So if we do it before the R5 draft, then I would probably wait until the day before the draft to release/waive all my players (makes it more difficult for other owners to plan and select players as most FA period has passed).

Because under the rule as written I don't have to be at 20 until the Roster Freeze which means I can dump everyone on Waivers about an hour before the AM cycle and still be in compliance with the rule. This means that other teams don't get a chance to claim those guys until after Rule 5 (and I am not sure if a waiver claim supersedes the Rule 5 claim or not but if it does a player I drafted might go to another team because he gets claimed on waivers). By having owners cut to 20 at the start of FA then everyone clears waivers or is claimed and assigned to a another team.

I agree that we should not rush this. But we should not be talking about it a month from now. jkenned's point is well taken and in my opinion makes good sense. As far as enforcement, we can all be deputies. I have no problem blowing the whistle on anyone.

I'm not in a rush, and I don't intend to start the season until all issues are resolved.

My problems with this proposal:

1.  Less time to decide which players to trim off your 40.  Sometimes real life gets in the way, even for three days straight.
2.  More enforcement work for commish and deputies
3.  The clincher - Tankers will benefit.  If all teams have to be at 20 at the start of FA period, there will be a glut on the waiver wire at that point, but after that, the waiver wire will then get good players added to it in dribs and drabs as free agents sign, and people will need to immediately place players on waivers, to stay at 20.  This means that the top priority teams will get the first shot at the best waived players each day.  What some people think of as a drawback to the current model, I look at as a positive.  If everyone waits till the last minute to make their DFA dump, that limits the amount of talent that goes to the team with the highest priority.  I would rather have the biggest glut of talent possible on the WW at once, rather than a small glut, and then dribs and drabs.  I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well enough, but in a nutshell, I think that the teams with the highest waiver picks will have it good enough without the added benefit of having good players to pick off the waiver wire every day of the FA period instead of having to choose from a very large glut of them on the rule 5 day.

A concern that was raised here that I think has merit, and I hope that someone knows the answer to is this:  When a player is on waivers and is available in the rule 5 draft, which takes precedence?

Pretty sure R5 happens BEFORE the WW distribution.   

And I'm going to add this because I'm not sure it's getting thru.

The guy with the #1 WW priority is going to have a huge advantage.    He will have the pick of 4 players in the first purge and 2 every day after that.   My 75 win Hamilton team was built on nothing but WW claims and FA leftovers.   It worked out pretty well for me.

1	halo23	ML	61-101	.377	4th	No	No
2	shesaid	ML	74-88	.457	3rd	No	No
3	shesaid	ML	78-84	.481	4th	No	No
4	RubeRant	ML	72-90	.444	4th	No	No
5	kingdean	ML	65-97	.401	4th	No	No
6	MikeT23	ML	75-87	.463	4th	No	No
7	MikeT23	ML	89-73	.549	3rd	No	No
8	MikeT23	ML	91-71	.562	2nd	No	No
9	MikeT23	ML	101-61	.623	2nd	Yes	No	no	no	no
10	MikeT23	ML	109-53	.673	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	yes
11	MikeT23	ML	107-55	.660	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	no
12	MikeT23	ML	101-61	.623	1st	No	Yes	yes	no	no
13	MikeT23	ML	113-49	.698	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
14	MikeT23	ML	112-50	.691	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
15	MikeT23	ML	90-72	.556	2nd	Yes	No	yes	no	no

And that was on players discarded from the 40 not the 20.   The #1 WW priority is going to have a big advantage early on.

Now, of course, I'd have only been able to keep 20 in the following years under your guidelines but a guy can do pretty well on leftovers(my payroll was 36m in that 75 win season). 

That's OK. It is something we have to deal with. Until our friends at WIS decide to help a theme league we just got to try.

I also think that jkenned approach is the best way to go

I guess I'm suggesting that you devise a way so #1 on WW can't cherrypick the best until game 28.    He's going to have first pick.   He should have a low payroll so he should get a giant IFA.   So being able to get everyone's 21st player seems to be piling on.    But, hey, I'm not in the world.   Just don't come crying to me when he's steamrolling everyone in S5 and people are dropping out because he's the ****.