All Forums > FC Dynasty Soccer > FC Dynasty > Starting second divisions?
1/27/2010 11:53 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By gjello10 on 1/27/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 1/25/2010
Well, this is essentially the same predicament a new coach finds himself in in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game ... more knowledgeable coaches with bigger budgets and better starting points each season, and untrustworthy advice in the forums.. Therefore, I also find it hard to argue with this.
And since new coaches grow up to win National Championships in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game, I would predict the same will happen in FCD. In fact, I believe that every NC winner in each of those games started out as a new owner at some point. And you will find it hard to argue with that.

That's just not true, Snake. In HBD, you take over someone else's team that they've been working on. In 95% of cases, there are SOME pieces in place that you can use, either in the majors or the minors. Also, you get to look at the available teams before you select one, so you know what you're getting. [Don't spin dizzily out of control just to try to support your argument. You could more readily argue that 95% of teams in HBD available to newbies are vastly inferior to the rest of the league, having been trade-raped for seasons, usually with hardly any pieces of real value . That is exactly the reason so many worlds take so long to fill.]

In GD, you also take over an existing programs, one that has either been run by another coach or the Sim, but which has some base of talent to build upon. [Sorry, but one of the recurring themes in the GD forums is how awful the sim teams are, how utterly uncompetitive, and how they need to be improved in the next update.] And you get to see what situation you're getting yourself into.

In FCD, you start with, essesntially, nothing usable at all. That's an enormous material difference. Going 5-9-24 with a -50 goal difference is not comparable to a typical 1st season experience in the other games. [... and if the "first season experience" is to be your focus, then do not play ANY Dynasty game.]

I would add that, in HBD, with the draft, IFAs, minor league seasons and playoffs, there is a lot more going on to keep your attention if you do end up with an uncompetitive team in season one. In FCD, all there is to do is check in daily to spend yesterday's revenue on stadium, and then wait until the next season's Free Agency. In GD a 1st year coach is learning complex gameplanning. There's very little to be learned in this game [sorry again ... with that attitude you will learn exactly what you expect to learn. That's an attitudinal problem, not a game problem.] about formations by constant 4-1 butt kickings during season one.

And I see you completely ignored the other similarities in every game that I summarized in my post ... "more knowledgeable coaches with bigger budgets and better starting points each season, and untrustworthy advice in the forums."

You guys can continue to argue that the sky is falling or that the game isn't changing at a pace that satisfies your impatience, but if you cross over into discussing the matter on its merits (a debate I would be happy to join) you'll have to sharpen up.
1/27/2010 12:49 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 1/27/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By gjello10 on 1/27/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 1/25/2010
Well, this is essentially the same predicament a new coach finds himself in in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game ... more knowledgeable coaches with bigger budgets and better starting points each season, and untrustworthy advice in the forums.. Therefore, I also find it hard to argue with this.
And since new coaches grow up to win National Championships in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game, I would predict the same will happen in FCD. In fact, I believe that every NC winner in each of those games started out as a new owner at some point. And you will find it hard to argue with that.

That's just not true, Snake. In HBD, you take over someone else's team that they've been working on. In 95% of cases, there are SOME pieces in place that you can use, either in the majors or the minors. Also, you get to look at the available teams before you select one, so you know what you're getting. [Don't spin dizzily out of control just to try to support your argument. You could more readily argue that 95% of teams in HBD available to newbies are vastly inferior to the rest of the league, having been trade-raped for seasons, usually with hardly any pieces of real value . That is exactly the reason so many worlds take so long to fill.] (I disagree, snake. There are many crap franchises avail., but it's not hard at all to find one that has pieces you like).

In GD, you also take over an existing programs, one that has either been run by another coach or the Sim, but which has some base of talent to build upon. [Sorry, but one of the recurring themes in the GD forums is how awful the sim teams are, how utterly uncompetitive, and how they need to be improved in the nest update.] (much of the lack of quality of GD Sim teams has to do with game management, not simply talent. The talent on a team that has been Sim-run for years is much, much closer to average than the talent on new FCD teams). And you get to see what situation you're getting yourself into.

In FCD, you start with, essesntially, nothing usable at all. That's an enormous material difference. Going 5-9-24 with a -50 goal difference is not comparable to a typical 1st season experience in the other games. [... and if the "first season experience" is to be your focus, then do not play ANY Dynasty game.] (I never said anything about my focus, but people have options in the entertainment market. You need to capitalize on the enjoyment that people get from the "new" and convince 1st season players that this game is going to be a lot of fun. But at the end of the day, you're wrong that the 1st season of a Dynasty game shouldn't be fun. It should CERTAINLY be fun. Maybe not successful, but fun. Expecting people to stick with an entertainment choice that isn't fun for the first 1-3 months is a denial of reality).

I would add that, in HBD, with the draft, IFAs, minor league seasons and playoffs, there is a lot more going on to keep your attention if you do end up with an uncompetitive team in season one. In FCD, all there is to do is check in daily to spend yesterday's revenue on stadium, and then wait until the next season's Free Agency. In GD a 1st year coach is learning complex gameplanning. There's very little to be learned in this game [sorry again ... with that attitude you will learn exactly what you expect to learn. That's an attitudinal problem, not a game problem.](wrong, buddy. I learned plenty in Season 2, with a competitive squad, able to experiment and tinker. But you learn very little by coaching boys against men in a slaughter. I didn't expect to learn nothing and get what I expected. I expected to learn something and was surprised to learn nothing). about formations by constant 4-1 butt kickings during season one.

And I see you completely ignored the other similarities in every game that I summarized in my post ... "more knowledgeable coaches with bigger budgets and better starting points each season, and untrustworthy advice in the forums."

You guys can continue to argue that the sky is falling or that the game isn't changing at a pace that satisfies your impatience, but if you cross over into discussing the matter on its merits (a debate I would be happy to join) you'll have to sharpen up.

Wrong. All of the other similarities are true- however the differences create a qualitative difference between FCD and the other games. Sure, all games have the features you cite. But they really don't count in this case (a) because the experience/skill factor is to be expected in all human enterprises and it isn't anything anyone is comlaining about at all and (b) the degree of unballance in the starting points is soo grossly different in FCD a compared to HBD, GD, etc as to not even merit comparison. The quality of talent a 1st year coach/owner in GD/HBD starts with is far, far closer to league average than in FCD, plus you have the opportunity to pick the team you want to start with an wait for a good one rather than be assigned an FCD team of no talent. Perhaps I shouldn't say they are irrelevant, so much as negligeble.

And also, if you were reading, you would see that I said specifically that the sky is not falling. They need to do a little recalibrating to get this thing on the track they want it on. That's all. Not screaming or ******** or moaning. Just commenting. Observing.

They either will make these kinds of changes or they won't. That's a business decission that's up to them. But if they stick their head completely in the sand, they'll end up with the FCD experiment being something of a bust, as it holds the interest of an ever dwindling number of players (one of which will probably stil lbe me, mind you). I care, therefore I comment (in a thread the site staff pinned for just this purpose, mind you).
1/27/2010 12:52 PM
Also, you completely ignored my point that in those games you get to make a decission as to whether or not you like a team/program and want to take it on, so you get control of your starting situation. The very worst HBD teams are very often taken over by some of the most experienced owners looking to have a challenging rebuild.

And then you accused me of ignoring parts of your argument.
1/27/2010 1:42 PM
True, you know your starting situation in all the WIS sports, some (GD, HBD) because you pick your team, some (FCD) because starter teams are all so similar.

But look at the arguments you are making to try to defend your points ... (1.) You pretend that HBD teams available to newbies aren't mostly crap, when that is exactly why worlds so often take RL weeks or months to fill. (2.) You deny that GD sim teams are crap, despite the cacaphony in the forums that they are so bad the game has to be updated to improve them. (3.) You held up "1st year experience" in evaluating a Dynasty game. (I will grant you were willing to backpedal on that one when challenged.) (4.) QUOTE: "I expected to learn something and was surprised to learn nothing," and that is supposed to be a game problem and not your problem. (5.) QUOTE: "Sure, all games have the features you cite. But they really don't count..." (6.) QUOTE: "The quality of talent a 1st year coach/owner in GD/HBD starts with is far, far closer to league average than in FCD." And in FCD everybody starts with essentially the same team. You disregard that even the guys who win championships started with essentially that same team.

And finally, one I can partly actually agree with: (7.) "They need to do a little recalibrating to get this thing on the track" FCD isn't off track, just not changing as fast as some people's impatience require. read Norbert's posts and you will see that (a) he understands how to improve it, (b) he is definitely on the right track, (c) he thought it would go a little faster than it has, and (d) the game it will become is a really good sounding game.

Patience, grasshopper.
1/27/2010 2:23 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 1/27/2010

True, you know your starting situation in all the WIS sports, some (GD, HBD) because you pick your team, some (FCD) because starter teams are all so similar.

But look at the arguments you are making to try to defend your points ... (1.) You pretend that HBD teams available to newbies aren't mostly crap, when that is exactly why worlds so often take RL weeks or months to fill. (2.) You deny that GD sim teams are crap, despite the cacaphony in the forums that they are so bad the game has to be updated to improve them. (3.) You held up "1st year experience" in evaluating a Dynasty game. (I will grant you were willing to backpedal on that one when challenged.) (4.) QUOTE: "I expected to learn something and was surprised to learn nothing," and that is supposed to be a game problem and not your problem. (5.) QUOTE: "Sure, all games have the features you cite. But they really don't count..." (6.) QUOTE: "The quality of talent a 1st year coach/owner in GD/HBD starts with is far, far closer to league average than in FCD." And in FCD everybody starts with essentially the same team. You disregard that even the guys who win championships started with essentially that same team.

And finally, one I can partly actually agree with: (7.) "They need to do a little recalibrating to get this thing on the track" FCD isn't off track, just not changing as fast as some people's impatience require. read Norbert's posts and you will see that (a) he understands how to improve it, (b) he is definitely on the right track, (c) he thought it would go a little faster than it has, and (d) the game it will become is a really good sounding game.

Patience, grasshopper.

I think we're mostly in agreement but talking past each other. First, to boil it all down, the average GD SIM team or HBD available franchise has a higher % of league average talent than the typical FCD club in a well-populated World by a considerable margin. Bear in mind that the very high # SIM teams in GD brings down the average talent level, which by definition is going to mean taking over a SIM team leaves you not that far from the league average.

Second, look at the highlighted portion. Replace that with "as fast as average people require" and you'll understand where a lot of us are coming from. You're a patient person, snake. We get that. And it's a very admirable quality in its own right. But you're more patient than I am, and I'm more patient than most, and that has a lot to do with human nature and the fact that people are just all different.

From a marketing perspective, in order for this to be something cool, fun, and successful that we can all be a part of long term, it needs to improve, as both you, norbet, and everyone else on the board acknowledges. And I think this is exactly the kind of user feedback the want and need. I really enjoy this game, but I can see why it has a hard time holding the appeal of regular, average joes long enough for them to catch up and get the hang of it.

I think the best definition of a Utopian system is a system that will work outstandingly well if only people in large numbers will just start behaving "better" than people in large numbers are known to generally behave.

When you're a very patient person, you have to be careful not to ask large numbers of people to be more patient than large numbers of people generally are, snake. Unless you don't mind setting yourself up to be let down all the time.
1/27/2010 3:25 PM
Maybe we do pretty much agree.

"League average talent" is relevant if that is who you want to beat in your first year, or if there were some requirement to be "league average" or bust. There isn't. You would be better served targeting your peers, imo, and understanding you are in a marathon, not a sprint.

I think it is a mistake to rush production of anything to meet people's impatience. This goes for FCD as well. That said, I think it would be a mistake to delay production unnecessarily as well.

Improvement is coming eventually. We know that, and we even know something of what it will be like. Average Joe will have to understand ... or move on and miss out.

I share your skepticism about the behavior of "people in large numbers." That doesn't make their behavior appropriate, acceptable, or a reason to rush the production of the game if it isn't ready.

I ask "large numbers of people to be more patient than large numbers of people generally are" all the time. I see no reason to excuse poor behavior in any context. (I apply that to myself, too. That is why I have pretty much quit crushing morons in the other forums. In hindsight, I think that was poor behavior.)

I look forward to optimal development of and participation in FCD -- I just don't know when that will be.
1/27/2010 9:47 PM
Something that I think needs to be changed, and should be relatively easy to do...Don't lock newcomers into a particular country unless they wish it to be so!!...When I first came to the FCD site, one of the very first things I encountered was the 'create a club' button. Great. Click. What country do you want to represent? Uhhh...USA, I guess... Now it's locked in and there is nothing that can change it. I would have been perfectly happy going to one of the other countries that is in need of teams. If WIS were to let you take the next available opening instead of having to wait no telling how long for an opening to come up in your "chosen" country, it would help to fill the worlds and get to those elusive 2nd levels.
1/28/2010 6:20 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By marble26 on 1/27/2010
Something that I think needs to be changed, and should be relatively easy to do...Don't lock newcomers into a particular country unless they wish it to be so!!...When I first came to the FCD site, one of the very first things I encountered was the 'create a club' button. Great. Click. What country do you want to represent? Uhhh...USA, I guess... Now it's locked in and there is nothing that can change it. I would have been perfectly happy going to one of the other countries that is in need of teams. If WIS were to let you take the next available opening instead of having to wait no telling how long for an opening to come up in your "chosen" country, it would help to fill the worlds and get to those elusive 2nd levels.

Now this makes perfect sense. Not to go all Nostradamus on you, but even before I got a club, in the first week FCD was ever launched, I guessed this would be a problem. Long before the first world ever started, it was a problem. 90% of the registered clubs were American.

I'm Canadian so I have no home country rooting interest. My life as a soccer fan has been focused abroad, so of course I chose a club from my country of choice.

2/1/2010 2:11 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By marble26 on 1/27/2010
Something that I think needs to be changed, and should be relatively easy to do...Don't lock newcomers into a particular country unless they wish it to be so!!...When I first came to the FCD site, one of the very first things I encountered was the 'create a club' button. Great. Click. What country do you want to represent? Uhhh...USA, I guess... Now it's locked in and there is nothing that can change it. I would have been perfectly happy going to one of the other countries that is in need of teams. If WIS were to let you take the next available opening instead of having to wait no telling how long for an opening to come up in your "chosen" country, it would help to fill the worlds and get to those elusive 2nd levels.



great idea
2/1/2010 12:20 PM
I don't think people have to wait very long to enter a world. In fact, some guys are arguing that there are too many openings. Can't have it both ways.

The game is not programmed to work differently for any one country compared to any other country. The only dofference comes about as some countries and some worlds fill faster than others. You can just balance your preference for one country or one world against the patience that will be required to land the spot you want.

(Edited for clarity.)
2/1/2010 1:33 PM
I don't want to play in any country, for sure. Also I am sure that some players want to be in exact world instead of any world.
2/1/2010 1:59 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By systemhalter on 2/01/2010I don't want to play in any country, for sure. Also I am sure that some players want to be in exact world instead of any world.
Yeah, sorry, my post wasn't very clear. It should be clearer now.
2/1/2010 2:16 PM
The question is what is reasonable waiting time, I remember that when I signed my 1st team in England wait time was 4 weeks +, not sure how much is for USA or Canada.

But it will be great if they can hold 20 ppl and instead of join 5 in 4 different worlds, just to create one 2nd division and etc.
It should be easy for popular worlds as USA,England,Canada,Italy.
2/1/2010 2:36 PM
I have a friend that has been waiting on the USA list for at least a week. I would hope that they create second divisions soon. If more people join then the game would start to function like it was developed. I would prefer only a handful of worlds, say five, with the full complement of countries, and many divisions. The divisions below 3 could be broken into "North and South" distinction so that it does not become to far to go to the top league.
2/1/2010 3:02 PM
The problems with only five worlds: (1) fewer rollovers to present opportunities for joining , (2) nowhere for the sudden influx of European and South American users to join when WIS markets successfully in those areas.

Whatever is most important to a new user is available to him as it is. If it is most important to join a particular world, he creates a team accordingly right before that world rolls. If it is most important to join a particular country, he simply creates a team in that country. If it is most important to join in a second division, he simply notes when the next world with a second division will roll and creates a team accordingly. If he wants one from column A AND one from column B, he needs to decide what is most important to him. If he wants the moon, he calls his realtor, not WIS.

Sorry, but all this impatience just doesn't get any sympathy from me. What is wrong with "waiting for at least a week" to join? I'm in whatever world they put me in, I play there and have fun there. Anyone can do the same.
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