JJ Topic

tracyr
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Quote: Originally Posted By firehawk122 on 5/12/2010
I've said it before - if you're not a contender when you sign JJ, you're probably going to regret it because of the cost associated with him- unless you're one of these teams that has a ton of cap space and you add pieces (i.e. - if NY keeps Lee, adds someone else and adds JJ - or if Chicago does something).

hawk, i respect your opinion, but this is ridiculous - it's a true statement no matter WHO you put in place of JJ - no one player can do **** in this league, without a very good supporting cast
5/12/2010 1:35 PM
ea162
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hawk, you want the Knicks to do nothing if they dont get LBJ/Wade/Bosh?

5/12/2010 1:43 PM
moranis
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Quote: Originally Posted By tracyr on 5/12/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By moranis on 5/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By tracyr on 5/11/2010

how is that positive for Atlanta - thats total crap - Allen is out of basketball in 2 years


Allen has a good 3 years if these playoffs are any indication. He is an excellent 3 point shooter, a solid leader, and doesn't fade away down the stretch in games. He is the deadeye big game player the Hawks need and quite frankly just don't have.

Perkins is a siginficant upgrade over Zaza. Perkins at least can muscle Howard around and make it at least a little difficult on him. If your the Hawks, you have to find someone in the paint that can do something to Howard since you have to face him all the time. It also allows Horford to spend a lot more time at his more natural PF position and a rotation of Perkins, Horford, and Smith at the 4/5 positions would be among the best in basketball for the next ten years (if they kept them all).

you are smokin dope on Perkin
It isn't a conincidence that Howard's offensive numbers are much worse when the Magic play the Celtics. 50% shooting just one time (when he had Perk in serious foul trouble), 9, 5, 19, and 16 total points in the four games against the Celtics.

Against the Hawks, Howard's regular season point totals were 22, 12 (foul trouble), 31, 19 over 60% twice, 50% once, and the 19 was an awful 36% but he also pulled down 24 boards. In the four postseason games 21 (80%), 29 (88.9%), 21 (75%), 13 (100%).

The Hawks needs someone like Perkins as they are softer then crap inside and Perkins would be a huge upgrade in that department. Perkins isn't a world beater, but he is a big strong center that doesn't get muscled around and pushes back against the big top flight centers.
5/12/2010 2:09 PM
deanod
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5/12/2010 2:12 PM
deanod
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Quote: Originally posted by firehawk122 on 5/12/2010I've said it before - if you're not a contender when you sign JJ, you're probably going to regret it because of the cost associated with him- unless you're one of these teams that has a ton of cap space and you add pieces (i.e. - if NY keeps Lee, adds someone else and adds JJ - or if Chicago does something).

You're overvaluing cap space- normally teams just use it on guys like Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. Is that what the Knicks should aspire to down the road if they miss out on Wade/James/Bosh?
5/12/2010 2:13 PM
firehawk122
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Quote: Originally Posted By ea162 on 5/12/2010
hawk, you want the Knicks to do nothing if they dont get LBJ/Wade/Bosh?



Not true.. I've stated numerous times throughout this and the FA thread that I would consider keeping Lee, adding two of JJ (who I really am not a fan of whatsoever and he is my least desired from this list), Amare, Boozer, Gay, Dirk, Bosh a success - I think that would make us a contender. And it's also financially possible to do so.
5/12/2010 2:31 PM
firehawk122
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Quote: Originally Posted By tracyr on 5/12/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By firehawk122 on 5/12/2010

I've said it before - if you're not a contender when you sign JJ, you're probably going to regret it because of the cost associated with him- unless you're one of these teams that has a ton of cap space and you add pieces (i.e. - if NY keeps Lee, adds someone else and adds JJ - or if Chicago does something).

hawk, i respect your opinion, but this is ridiculous - it's a true statement no matter WHO you put in place of JJ - no one player can do **** in this league, without a very good supporting cast



Well, let's flip the question:

List all the teams who you think would benefit from signing JJ to a max deal (and conditions if you want). Of course, there's other variables that could cloud the issue (for example, if you value JJ highly, you're more likely to say yes) but I think it's a good baromoter. Mainly trying to drill down to get a good apple to apple comparison - if you can think of a better way, offer that up as an alternative.
5/12/2010 2:35 PM
firehawk122
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Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 5/12/2010
Quote: Originally posted by firehawk122 on 5/12/2010
I've said it before - if you're not a contender when you sign JJ, you're probably going to regret it because of the cost associated with him- unless you're one of these teams that has a ton of cap space and you add pieces (i.e. - if NY keeps Lee, adds someone else and adds JJ - or if Chicago does something).
I wouldn't have signed those guys - I blasted the signings when they happened. If we can't add a Bosh/Lebron/Wade, I want them to keep Lee, and add two of the list I've referenced a few times. That to me, should be Plan B.
You're overvaluing cap space- normally teams just use it on guys like Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. Is that what the Knicks should aspire to down the road if they miss out on Wade/James/Bosh
5/12/2010 2:38 PM
deanod
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I think that's a very dreamy plan B, seeing that it will require discounts on what the players could get elsewhere.

And of course you would criticize those signings- they suck. The point is that's what's generally available when you have cap space, it's overrated. So if your options are

A) Joe Johnson now
B) A Ben Gordon quality player later
C) A new yacht for the Dolans

How is A not far and away the best option?
5/12/2010 2:49 PM
ea162
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hawk, no way the Knicks get 3 of the Lee/JJ/Boozer/Gay/Bosh/Dirk group this season, all 3 who signed would have to do it at a discount

so are you saying its better to get none of them rather than getting 2 of them?
5/12/2010 3:03 PM
firehawk122
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It would depend on which 2. The idea of getting JJ and Amare and being locked into 43-39 with Curry's contract as your only moveable asset for a team with no defense isn't that appealing - at that point, I'd rather take my chances on the ping pong balls and build that way.

On the other hand, if you could do something like keep Lee, get Bosh, pull a Curry for Baron Davis trade (I've heard rumors to that affect) now you have something resembling a contender.

I view the guys on that list differently from each other.
5/12/2010 3:35 PM
deanod
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And what's the Plan C- to sit on your cap space and wait around for what? LeBron's 2015 FA?
5/12/2010 3:36 PM
deanod
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I will admit, sending those draft picks to Houston solely to dump Jeffries and rent a T-Mac was friggin retarded on NYK's part.
5/12/2010 3:40 PM
ea162
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hawk, they could sign JJ and Amare and then next year sign another top FA or even trade Curry for somebody this year like your Baron Davis remark

so JJ/Amare/Davis = suck

but Lee/Bosh/Davis = title contender

I dont see it, both teams look about the same

as for the ping pong balls, theres so much luck involved not to mention theyve seriously limited themselves with the Rockets trade that youre asking for quite a bit to work out over the next 3 years for you to be better off
5/12/2010 3:54 PM
deanod
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The 2011 swap with Houston is only top 1 protected, and it doesn't look like that #1 pick is going to be a huge prize. You're looking at Harrison Barnes and Perry Jones as the best options to emerge as the #1 guy, and neither of them projects to be the franchise savior that you're looking for. Best case you're looking at a 25% chance of landing the #1 pick, and more likely a 5-10% shot. The Rockets are a solid bet to be around .500 again, so it's very likely that a 43-39 finish doesn't have a major impact on their draft position compared to 25-57.

Then if their 2012 pick is in the 6-10 range, they get zippo again and they have now tanked fruitlessly for 2 years and counting. Even if they land in the top 5 and get to keep the pick, they still need to get lucky enough to have the right guy on the board and savvy enough to snag him. And almost inevitably, they are going to land in the 6-14 range at some point from 2012-2015 and have to give up the pick.

Considering how long the team has sucked with Isiah fcking up and then Walsh cleaning up his mess in preparation for LeBron, it seems silly to continue the strategy with such a slim chance of building a championship caliber core through the draft.
5/12/2010 3:57 PM
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