Tim Tebow Topic

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/23/2012 10:58:00 AM (view original):
That's a poor example, jtpops.   Because, with a healthy Manning and a committment to use him for the next 3-4 seasons, the Colts would do exactly that.  They'd have traded the pick to address needs for the end of Manning's run.
That's precisely my point. If the best guy on the board is at a position you truly can't use him at, you trade the pick to someone who really values him. That didn't happen in the examples given in this thread, so clearly those players were not rated as highly at the time as we see them now. Could bad scouting factor in? Sure, but that many teams, even with an established QB, are not going to pass on a guy who projects to be the best of all time at his position. History makes it clear that certain guys, for whatever reason, get a hell of a lot better after draft day
3/23/2012 11:37 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 3/23/2012 10:48:00 AM (view original):
So if the Colts still had Manning, and he was guaranteed to be healthy, they could get a pass on not drafting Luck or RG3, since they had more pressing needs?
yes and no.  Yes if Manning were like 28.  No, since he is 36.  The Packers had a healthy Favre in 2005.  They took Rodgers.  Favre was over 35.  They needed to start thinking about his replacement.  The Colts should have drafted Luck or RG III if they had the chance this year healthy Peyton or not.  QB was a need they were going to have soon enough.
3/23/2012 11:37 AM
Posted by stinenavy on 3/23/2012 11:00:00 AM (view original):
Quite a few notes here:

1) Rice/Marino/Smith might not have become Rice/Marino/Smith if drafted by the Jets.
2) If the Raiders drafted Leinhart there's a chance they wouldn't have been bad enough the next season to get Calvin Johnson anyway.
3) As far as drafting you have to put it in context here as far as value at draft time. If Luck and RGIII are both hurt or are terrible or whatever, and Ryan Tannehill gets drafted like 14th and becomes an amazing QB, bashing the Colts and Redskins for not taking Tannehill 1st or 2nd probably isn't right.

These are some valid points.

1. Emmitt Smith on virtually any other team would not have been nearly as good.  Dallas had the right combination of HUGE run blockers and a dart-throwing QB to make it work.  Emmitt Smith on the Jets would have been Blair Thomas.
2. The Raiders drafted Leinart when his name was Marinovich.
3. If you want to see a history of inept team management, read Bill Simmons column in Grantland about the Golden State Warriors.  Holy ****, I'm kind of a Warrior fan, and even I forgot some of the idiotic moves they made.  The Jets are nothing compared to the GSW.

3/23/2012 12:16 PM
Emmitt Smith on the Jets would have been Blair Thomas?  So...  he would go from 18,355 to 2,236 yards?  I know Emmitt Smith would definitely have not been the same....   but 2,236 yards in his career?
3/23/2012 12:22 PM
Wow, way to be over-literal.
3/23/2012 12:25 PM
Sorry Todd.   When you deal with some people here sometimes, you scour over every word you are going to write, because any one word that you use that might be misconstrued winds up being 30 pages of crap slinging.  I know you likely did not think Emmitt would be a 2200 yard career rusher.  He would likely still have been a HOFer.  If Curtis Martin could do what he did with the Jets, so could Emmitt.  They were similar runners, grinding out their yards without the help of many 50+ yard runs.
3/23/2012 12:53 PM

Well, when the one word(or sentence in this case) implies that Tebow has less value to a NFL than a ping pong ball, you get what you deserve.  Overreact and you'll be mocked. 

Anyway, if a team thinks "He'll be one of the best ever as his position but we're solid there" and passes on the player in the draft, they're inept.   That's not what happened with the Jets.

3/23/2012 1:00 PM
Look, Mike.    My original post was saying that Jet fans are not upset with the Tebow signing as an isolated incident.  It is a case of continuing ineptitude.  This next part is what I was trying to explain.....

THE JETS ARE A TERRIBLY RUN FRANCHISE.  WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO DRAFT PLAYERS AT POSITIONS THAT THEY NEED, THEY CONTINUALLY BYPASS PLAYERS OF HOF CALIBER, AND DRAFT BUSTS OR IN THE CASE OF AL TOON, SERVICEABLE PLAYERS.  IN ADDITION, RATHER THAN TRADE AND FILL NEEDS, THE JETS HAVE BEEN MORE CONCERNED WITH MAKING A SPLASH IN THE MEDIA.  

You said that what happened wasn't the Jets passing on players that they thought were potential HOFers.  Thats 100% true. However, the Jets did not even think that Marino/Rice/Smith were the best available at their position at that point in the draft, but the very next team that needed that position did think that about them.  The Jets were wrong each time.

What happened was the Jets needed a WR, took Lam Jones and left Art Monk for the Redskins 11 spots later.  The Jets needed a WR again because of that dismal pick, and took Al Toon leaving Jerry Rice for the Niners 7 spots later.   The Jets needed a QB and took Ken O'Brien leaving Dan Marino for the Dolphins 2 picks later.  The Jets needed a RB, and took Blair Thomas leaving Emmitt Smith for the Cowboys 10 picks later.


3/23/2012 2:11 PM

Did everyone else think those guys were the best available players at their position at the time?  That's Mike's point.  It's really only evidence of ineptitude if the Jets were going against the prevailing wisdom with those picks.  For all we know, if you'd flipped the picking teams at that time, the teams that wound up with Marino/Smith/Rice get the Jets crap and the Jets look like one of the greatest organizations ever.

3/23/2012 2:16 PM
Look, E.  When you say "He's not as valuable as a ping pong ball", you're not talking about the 1985 draft.  You're talking about one very specific player.   Don't try to weasel out of your dumbassery.  I know you don't like Tebow as a QB.   Fine, I get that.   However, adding him does not indicate ineptitude.   It indicates that they weren't enamored with potential HOFers Drew Stanton and Greg McIlroy as back-ups to Mark Sanchez.    If you want to say Stanton/McIlroy are better options than Tebow, I'll question your football acumen.

As for the draft picks, EVERY team can tell the same story.   Everyone has passed on future HOFers.    Everyone has a Ryan Leaf pick.   The Jets' mistakes may be near and dear to your heart but they are not isolated incidences.   Tim Couch was #1 overall.   Cincy missed on about 20 consecutive drafts.   Detroit drafted WR first half a dozen times before hitting on Johnson.  ******* Oakland and linemen.   Eli Manning wouldn't even play for SD.  Alex Smith before Aaron Rodgers.  Favre by ATL.  Brady in the 6th round.  Moss skipped by 20+ teams.    I bet I could look at every NFL draft since the beginning of time and say "Damn.  They f'd that one up."
3/23/2012 2:39 PM
Like I said, it's really about what everyone else saw.  If E could prove to me that at the time, everyone thought Smith was the superior back and the Jets took Thomas anyhow, that's one thing.   But if most/all saw Thomas as the better back coming out of college, then it's not ineptitude.   It goes back to what stine said.  If 20 years from now Andrew Luck and RGIII are busts and some other later drafted QB is a HOF, sure, it'll look bad in hindsight, but the Colts/Redskins would have made the same "mistakes" that everyone else would have made in their position this year.
3/23/2012 2:52 PM
I'll use 2001 as the example.   Vick was considered the only Day 1 QB on the board.   ATL took him first.  6 years later,  I don't think anyone would have said "Stupid pick."   Then that blew-up at about the same time Brees was going to New Orleans.   Brees was considered a decent prospect but lacked the size/arm strength to be a legit NFL star before the draft.    Atlanta looked pretty stupid about midway thru the 2007 season.
3/23/2012 3:13 PM
Posted by eschwartz67 on 3/23/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Look, Mike.    My original post was saying that Jet fans are not upset with the Tebow signing as an isolated incident.  It is a case of continuing ineptitude.  This next part is what I was trying to explain.....

THE JETS ARE A TERRIBLY RUN FRANCHISE.  WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO DRAFT PLAYERS AT POSITIONS THAT THEY NEED, THEY CONTINUALLY BYPASS PLAYERS OF HOF CALIBER, AND DRAFT BUSTS OR IN THE CASE OF AL TOON, SERVICEABLE PLAYERS.  IN ADDITION, RATHER THAN TRADE AND FILL NEEDS, THE JETS HAVE BEEN MORE CONCERNED WITH MAKING A SPLASH IN THE MEDIA.  

You said that what happened wasn't the Jets passing on players that they thought were potential HOFers.  Thats 100% true. However, the Jets did not even think that Marino/Rice/Smith were the best available at their position at that point in the draft, but the very next team that needed that position did think that about them.  The Jets were wrong each time.

What happened was the Jets needed a WR, took Lam Jones and left Art Monk for the Redskins 11 spots later.  The Jets needed a WR again because of that dismal pick, and took Al Toon leaving Jerry Rice for the Niners 7 spots later.   The Jets needed a QB and took Ken O'Brien leaving Dan Marino for the Dolphins 2 picks later.  The Jets needed a RB, and took Blair Thomas leaving Emmitt Smith for the Cowboys 10 picks later.


Missed the 3rd paragraph the first time through, and that's where you argument breaks down.  How do you know the Cowboys didn't have Thomas rated more highly than Smith, or that the Dolphins didn't like O'Brien better than Marino, or that the 49ers wouldn't have preferred Toon to Rice given the opportunity?  You don't, because those players were off the board when those teams picked.

You argument basically says this:  if two teams have players A and B both ranked first and second on their draft board, and B ends up in the HOF while A busts out, the team that drafted first was inept and the team that drafted second was shrewd, when really the team that drafted second was really just pretty fortunate.
3/23/2012 3:23 PM

I recall Toon being referred to as the next "Art Monk".   No idea of that was intended to be a compliment or not.   I don't recall anyone mentioning Jerry Rice.  He wasn't exceptionally big or fast and from a small college.

Thomas went to Penn State and Smith to Florida.   I don't recall either of them being referred to as "can't miss".

As far as Marino, I recall that QB class being ranked all over the place after Elway.   Kelly, O'Brien, Blackledge, Eason and Marino.  I can't remember any of them being declared "sure things" other than Elway.  

3/23/2012 3:51 PM
◂ Prev 1...6|7|8|9|10...15 Next ▸
Tim Tebow Topic

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2016 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.