As for Jesus and God and all that...you have been given free will to choose what ever you want. I say choose wisely.

If, as you say, Jesus is not whom he said he was and billions of people are delusional then believing or not believing makes no difference in your life...unless you are mistaken. Then you have to pay the price in the "next world"

If, on the other hand, Jesus was the Son of God and billions of people were right, then believing get you the grand prize in the end and not believing gets you punishment.

Life has to have meaning.

My god is not a vengeful god.   He doesn't believe in punishing His people. 

Why is your god so spiteful?

There is certainly a difference between Old Testemont God and the New Testemont God (sorry for the spelling, they need a spell check button, I'm lost without it).

I just finished reading Ezekial. I was taken a back by God's venegeful nature in that account. Alot of that is explained in the Revalations given to Joseph Smith 150 years ago.

Well, explain it.  

"BELIEVE IN ME OR YE SHALL BE PUNISHED!!!" seems quite evil.   Trump-like, I'd say.

we come from a pre-mortal existance - meaning each of our 'souls' were with God at one time.  God had 2 sons - Jesus and Satan. When the world and us were created, God wanted each of us to have 'free will' meaning, we get to choose to listen to him or ...not. Satan said he wanted to make us worship God (thus taking away our free will in the matter) Jesus said 'your will be done'.
Satan was cast out of heaven and sent to earth. He battles God for our souls daily. We can only return to God without sin on us (his rule if you will). This is impossible to do because we are flawed. Jesus was sent down as a permanent sacrifice, blah blah blah you know the rest of the story.

Instead of "BELIEVE IN ME OR YE SHALL BE PUNISHED" The more correct phrase is "if you want to return to me, you have to believe and accept the sacrifice made on your part, if not,  thats okay, you will get another chance later at the end of this world"

Seems to me we get sent straight to hell where we burn for eternity.   Not exactly another chancem, IMO.

As you may be able to tell Mike, micki's views are (or at least appear to me to be) Morman.  I have a lot of respect for people who practice it - in fact, of the Mormans I know, they do a better job with their family lives than most (mainstream) Christians.  I disagree with it, but that's a different matter.  I am by no means an expert on it, but views he (or she?  I shouldn't assume...) is sharing with differ somewhat from mainstream Protestant Christianity or Catholicism.

With all that said, the "BELIEVE IN ME OR YE SHALL BE PUNISHED" is not a travesty of justice nor is it "evil" in and of itself.  The fact that there is a such thing as evil in the first place is one of the things that give rise to the concept of justice.  From God's perspective, we are all evil - it's just a matter of degree.  We, as humans don't get to decide the nature of God.    If God exists, he doesn't exist because we want Him to, and he doesn't exist the way we prefer Him to be.  If there is a God and He isn't holy, I'm not sure it would make sense to believe in him.  If He is holy, then none of us could possibly meet that standard.  micki and I are in agreement on that part.

But anyway, whatever is true, it is true regardless of what we believe about it.  If the God of the Bible exists, He exists independently from our choice to believe in Him or not.  You obviously know where I stand on the matter.

I almost fear a discussion on theology with almost anyone because I assume they're more knowledgable and "committed" to religion than I am.

I have a bit of a problem with organized religion and the Bible.   It would be easy to rattle off a laundry list of people who claimed to have "spoken to God" or, at the very least, have been spoken to by God who didn't turn out to be very good people.   So, for me, the "inventors" of organized religion and the writers of the Bible could have been cut from the same cloth.   It's difficult for me to not be skeptical when man gets involved.   Man is greedy and self-serving.    Religion is a good way to better yourself.   Scare the common folk, they'll fall in line and help you accomplish your own personal goals.   Which is, quite frankly, why I somewhat doubt the vengeful god. 

Perhaps it comes from the little "scare pamphlets" they'd pass out from time to time in elementary school.   Dressed up as cartoons but meant to put the fear of Jesus in you.    Of course, that was before any mention of God in school was the devil's work. 

Posted by antoncresten on 4/30/2012 10:27:00 AM (view original):
BUDDHA IS TEH ONLY WAY

YE ARE AN INJUN!!!   YE DON'T BELIEVE IN THE WHITE OR YELLOW MAN'S GOD!!!!

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/30/2012 10:31:00 AM (view original):
I almost fear a discussion on theology with almost anyone because I assume they're more knowledgable and "committed" to religion than I am.

I have a bit of a problem with organized religion and the Bible.   It would be easy to rattle off a laundry list of people who claimed to have "spoken to God" or, at the very least, have been spoken to by God who didn't turn out to be very good people.   So, for me, the "inventors" of organized religion and the writers of the Bible could have been cut from the same cloth.   It's difficult for me to not be skeptical when man gets involved.   Man is greedy and self-serving.    Religion is a good way to better yourself.   Scare the common folk, they'll fall in line and help you accomplish your own personal goals.   Which is, quite frankly, why I somewhat doubt the vengeful god. 

Perhaps it comes from the little "scare pamphlets" they'd pass out from time to time in elementary school.   Dressed up as cartoons but meant to put the fear of Jesus in you.    Of course, that was before any mention of God in school was the devil's work. 

A discussion on theology would be a long one, and one that would be difficult to keep on topic.  Your skepticism is entirely understandable.  FWIW, if I considered religion as something of a cafeteria to "make my life better", so to speak, I certainly would not choose the God of the Bible.  There are many religions out there that do not require you to admit there's not a shred of real goodness you get any credit for yourself, that don't require that you give of yourself sacrificially, that don't require you to give up many of life's carnal pleasures and submit yourself to judgement based on the words of a teacher who was killed by his own society.  New Age, feel-good stuff would work far better for me if I chose to look at things from that perspective.  If there is no God, a comfortable religion that makes your life better has definite pragmatic benefits, such as a healthier, happier life - in general. 

The problem is that something about why we are here is true.  Either stuff just appeared out of no stuff and mixed together over time to create the start of life all on it's own (with more information that what it would take to build a city - and enough to somehow replicate itself), or there was a cause to it.  If there was a cause to it, it would make sense to find out what that cause was, if we can.  Outside of faith, reasonable people can rationally discuss these things.

It does sadden me that many things have been done in the name of God, or in the name of religion, and that it tends to lump all the belief systems togetther as irrational.  Because if one of them happens to be true, those that have used the name wrongly have done irreperable damage to many lives.

There are many pitfalls with "organized religion"; there are many pitfalls with organized Christianity.  My wife worked as the office manager for one of the larger churches in the city before our kids came along.  We've seen many of those pitfalls from the inside.  But, the fact that we, who cannot hold to the standards of God, are those that do the organizing, it's bound to have its problems. 

A discussion can be rational on the subject, but it's not always easy.  Especially on internet forums - as I've noticed from time to time.

I'm not sure a discussion on religion can be rational.   I'm almost certain it can't be on the internet.   Nonetheless, when someone points to the Bible and says "See?  It's written right here!", I tend to ask "Who wrote it?"    When they tell me God thru men He spoke to, I point to Jim Bakker and say "God spoke to him also.  Good luck with that."

Since all religion is based on "faith" that there exists something that cannot be physically seen or touched, any discussion about religion is going to be purely subjective on the part of the participants.  There is never going to be any definite proof or dis-proof of any statements anybody makes on the subject.

So any debate becomes purely an intellectual exercise with no winners or losers.  Which generally makes debating religion a huge waste of time.

As long as your religious beliefs don't infringe on me or my family (and vice versa), I couldn't care less about what anybody else does or doesn't believe with respect to religion.  And likewise, nobody should care about what I do or don't believe in.

Posted by micki on 4/27/2012 1:50:00 PM (view original):
As for Jesus and God and all that...you have been given free will to choose what ever you want. I say choose wisely.

If, as you say, Jesus is not whom he said he was and billions of people are delusional then believing or not believing makes no difference in your life...unless you are mistaken. Then you have to pay the price in the "next world"

If, on the other hand, Jesus was the Son of God and billions of people were right, then believing get you the grand prize in the end and not believing gets you punishment.

Life has to have meaning.

But what if we pick the wrong one?  What if I pick Catholicism to be the winner but instead Seventh Day Adventists win.