11/24/2012 5:28 PM
Posted by isack24 on 11/24/2012 1:57:00 PM (view original):
"It actually has nothing to do with inflating records/stats, and has everything to do with getting the program and school exposure."

A distinction without a difference, I suppose.  Obviously no one cares about D3 records or stats unless they get exposure, so the two go hand in hand.  And I think your rationale is wrong.  Do you really, deep down, honestly believe that this had anything to do with funding?  Grinnell is an elite academic institution.  It has a pretty massive endowment.  Having some guy score 100+ points isn't going to do anything to Grinnell's reputation, or finances, one way or the other.  

I don't think they HAD to beat them by 70.  Is it absolutely necessary to press and bomb 3s up 60 in the second half?  To me, and it's obviously only my opinion, it's a bullshit move at that point.  If you win a game by 70, then you do.  But I don't like the WAY they did it.  It serves no real purpose other than to embarrass the other team at that point.
"Is it absolutely necessary to press and bomb 3s up 60 in the second half?"

Nope, but that's really all they know. Grinnell playing in the halfcourt and not putting up the first semi-decent look it gets would be a foreign concept.
11/24/2012 7:10 PM
They've all played basketball before.  They could at least lift the press.
11/26/2012 10:28 PM
Posted by isack24 on 11/24/2012 7:10:00 PM (view original):
They've all played basketball before.  They could at least lift the press.
But if they never ever lift the press, why should they do it in this game? 
11/26/2012 11:09 PM
Just as a follow-up, Jack Taylor scored 21 in the follow-up game.  Nearly 100 pts. less.  Slacker.
11/26/2012 11:29 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 11/26/2012 10:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 11/24/2012 7:10:00 PM (view original):
They've all played basketball before.  They could at least lift the press.
But if they never ever lift the press, why should they do it in this game? 
To not be dicks.
11/26/2012 11:30 PM
If I run a spread offense and rarely run the ball, why shouldn't I throw up 60 in the 4th quarter?  I can't really believe anyone is condoning pressing a team of inferior players up by 60 late in the second half.
11/27/2012 10:14 AM (edited)
These aren't 10 year olds who are going to cry and psyches are going to be damaged because they lost a basketball game by a lot. These are college students who have perspective and realize it's just a game and aren't going to sit their thinking "these guys are hurting my feelings by still pressing." If the opposing players and coaches aren't complaining why are you? Do you see other NFL teams complaining that the Patriots run up the score? No, because they are big boys and they can handle it. It just seems silly to me for people on the outside looking in to complain about something that the people who are having this happen to them aren't even complaining about. 

In short it just makes no sense to me for people to think a team should abandon the way they play simply because the other team isn't good. How does it help anybody for you to take pity on the team you are playing and not play hard simply so you don't embarrass them? Isn't it embarrassing in of itself if you openly say to this team "you guys suck so bad we aren't even going to play hard and we're going to do things we're not even good at, just so the score isn't too bad."

11/27/2012 11:43 AM

You made one decent point that entire post, and I'll get to it in a second.  All of the "they're adults" stuff is crap.  Of course they can take it (although arguing that 18- to 21-year old non-scholarhsip athletes can "take it" is pretty weak, too).  It has nothing to do with their psyche.  It's not the losing team I care about.  There's a certain respect that should be shown by the winning team.  That goes for everything, life included.  It's a way I live my life and I'm not persuaded by a "they can take it" mantra.  I think that attitude reeks of entitlement and a lack of respect for the people around you.  Sure, maybe they can take it, but that's not the point. 

And your Patriots is example is poor.  Teams were ****** when Schiano had his players try to force fumbles on kneel downs.  Players get hit for stealing up big late in games or bunting to break up no-hitters.  Hard fouls happen when NBA players are showboating late in blowouts.  And to be honest, I usually side with the Schianos, base stealers, and showboaters.  Those guys are professionals, and they get paid to play better than they are playing.  But there's something different about intentionally running up the score on D3 players who aren't getting paid in any way to play that bugs me. 

The one good point you make is that the players involved don't seem to mind.  Except...you have no idea if that's true.  My guess is that plenty of those players mind, and they strongly dislike Grinnell for that reason.  But it's midwest D3 basketball, and there aren't a lot of press conferences to discuss their feelings.  Or maybe they would be smart enough to not say anything anyway, I don't know.  But neither of us have any idea if these kids care, so while I think you'd have a good point if what you said was true, I think you're probably wrong about that.  

11/27/2012 12:39 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 11/27/2012 10:14:00 AM (view original):
These aren't 10 year olds who are going to cry and psyches are going to be damaged because they lost a basketball game by a lot. These are college students who have perspective and realize it's just a game and aren't going to sit their thinking "these guys are hurting my feelings by still pressing." If the opposing players and coaches aren't complaining why are you? Do you see other NFL teams complaining that the Patriots run up the score? No, because they are big boys and they can handle it. It just seems silly to me for people on the outside looking in to complain about something that the people who are having this happen to them aren't even complaining about. 

In short it just makes no sense to me for people to think a team should abandon the way they play simply because the other team isn't good. How does it help anybody for you to take pity on the team you are playing and not play hard simply so you don't embarrass them? Isn't it embarrassing in of itself if you openly say to this team "you guys suck so bad we aren't even going to play hard and we're going to do things we're not even good at, just so the score isn't too bad."

Agreed 100% with your second paragraph.  A couple of years ago at a soccer tournament, I saw part of a game between two mismatched teams where the strong team had something like a 6-0 lead at the half.  In the second half, they passed up clear opportunities to score and just possessed the ball for the entire half.  At one point, one of their forwards beat two defenders down the left sideline, sprinted towards the goal, then at the last second (instead of shooting and scoring what would have been an easy goal) turned around and dribbled all the way back up the left sideline again.

It was way more humiliating to the weaker team than scoring a few more goals would have been.
11/27/2012 1:32 PM
Posted by davis on 11/27/2012 12:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 11/27/2012 10:14:00 AM (view original):
These aren't 10 year olds who are going to cry and psyches are going to be damaged because they lost a basketball game by a lot. These are college students who have perspective and realize it's just a game and aren't going to sit their thinking "these guys are hurting my feelings by still pressing." If the opposing players and coaches aren't complaining why are you? Do you see other NFL teams complaining that the Patriots run up the score? No, because they are big boys and they can handle it. It just seems silly to me for people on the outside looking in to complain about something that the people who are having this happen to them aren't even complaining about. 

In short it just makes no sense to me for people to think a team should abandon the way they play simply because the other team isn't good. How does it help anybody for you to take pity on the team you are playing and not play hard simply so you don't embarrass them? Isn't it embarrassing in of itself if you openly say to this team "you guys suck so bad we aren't even going to play hard and we're going to do things we're not even good at, just so the score isn't too bad."

Agreed 100% with your second paragraph.  A couple of years ago at a soccer tournament, I saw part of a game between two mismatched teams where the strong team had something like a 6-0 lead at the half.  In the second half, they passed up clear opportunities to score and just possessed the ball for the entire half.  At one point, one of their forwards beat two defenders down the left sideline, sprinted towards the goal, then at the last second (instead of shooting and scoring what would have been an easy goal) turned around and dribbled all the way back up the left sideline again.

It was way more humiliating to the weaker team than scoring a few more goals would have been.
I agree with you and the part where it's more humiliating to have a team essentially stop playing than to keep on doing what it does.

But soccer and basketball are apples and oranges... I play both, but soccer is my true love, and in the scenario you explained, you don't even need to go to goal. There is no shot clock. You can possess the ball - even in your own half - for a long period of time if you are so superior. In basketball, there's a shot clock, and it doesn't make sense to not score in any circumstance.

But I agree with your main point, and I'd rather an opponent keep on doing what they normally do as opposed to having them just stop trying altogether.
11/27/2012 2:29 PM
isack, why did you completely ignore the 2nd paragraph?

You are also still acting like the goal for Grinnell is to win by as much as possible whereas all they are doing is playing hard the entire game. As a person that played basketball in NYC and never played for one of the power AAU teams I was on teams that lost plenty of games by 40+, and never once did me, my teammates or coaches get upset because the other team kept playing their system. 
11/27/2012 6:50 PM (edited)
Posted by kmasonbx on 11/27/2012 2:31:00 PM (view original):
isack, why did you completely ignore the 2nd paragraph?

You are also still acting like the goal for Grinnell is to win by as much as possible whereas all they are doing is playing hard the entire game. As a person that played basketball in NYC and never played for one of the power AAU teams I was on teams that lost plenty of games by 40+, and never once did me, my teammates or coaches get upset because the other team kept playing their system. 

I had a long post, but I'm deleting it. 

Look, I don't really want to belabor this more than we already have.  Obviously we have differing viewpoints.  I'm often in the "competitive sports aren't meant to make people feel better" camp.  I don't think it's embarrassing to have a team pull its press the same way I don't think it's embarrassing to have a team (like every team does) run the ball up big in the fourth quarter.  It doesn't mean the players stop trying.

To me, it's a little more disgusting that Grinnell was doing this solely to get the kid the record and themselves attention.  That's really my big problem with it.  And so yes, Grinnell's goal WAS to score as much as possible, or at least for Taylor to do so.  Any crap about Grinnell playing within their system for that game is a lie.  It's why Taylor took all the shots and why he played 36 minutes when players at Grinnell rarely do that.

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