All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
3/12/2013 10:42 AM (edited)
Yeah...when Brady makes plays...it's lucky. 

Brady doesn't usually make plays when there is any kind of pressure at all - that's the point. He's NOT "making plays" - he either chokes or is bailed out by some sort of less than common circumstance most of the time (i.e. odd timeout, blown call, made call in his favor, blown defense, etc.)

Rarely does he actually make any plays under pressure. Other QBs do this on a regular basis, some of whom aren't even considered great.

Look at what Eli did in the first SB win for the Giants - the famous Tyree catch doesn't happen if he can't avoid the sack first, but if that's Brady, he goes down no question (he has in other similar circumstances). 

The Roethisberger throw to Holmes to win their SB - Brady never even makes that throw because he plays too conservatively. He'd have chucked it way over their heads and tried again, but Ben made the play and won the game. Brady doesn't have the confidence to make this throw and probably not the accuracy either.

Even Colin Kapernick put his team in position to make a huge comeback and possibly win an SB, which involved a few runs (including one TD run) that were critical - Brady doesn't make these plays either, because he doesn't have the speed.

Bottom line, when the time comes for Brady to make plays under pressure, he chokes miserably unless something he has little control over bails him out.

Tell you what, though - I'll make a point next fall to watch the NFL again and note when Brady actually makes a play under pressure. I want to be able to prove it doesn't happen very often. There are plenty of QBs who make far more plays under pressure than he does.

The guy is just over hyped and over rated, so you think he must do it more than he actually does.

3/12/2013 10:54 AM
Posted by bistiza on 3/12/2013 10:42:00 AM (view original):
Yeah...when Brady makes plays...it's lucky. 

Brady doesn't usually make plays when there is any kind of pressure at all - that's the point. He's NOT "making plays" - he either chokes or is bailed out by some sort of less than common circumstance most of the time (i.e. odd timeout, blown call, made call in his favor, blown defense, etc.)

Rarely does he actually make any plays under pressure. Other QBs do this on a regular basis, some of whom aren't even considered great.

Look at what Eli did in the first SB win for the Giants - the famous Tyree catch doesn't happen if he can't avoid the sack first, but if that's Brady, he goes down no question (he has in other similar circumstances). 

The Roethisberger throw to Holmes to win their SB - Brady never even makes that throw because he plays too conservatively. He'd have chucked it way over their heads and tried again, but Ben made the play and won the game. Brady doesn't have the confidence to make this throw and probably not the accuracy either.

Even Colin Kapernick put his team in position to make a huge comeback and possibly win an SB, which involved a few runs (including one TD run) that were critical - Brady doesn't make these plays either, because he doesn't have the speed.

Bottom line, when the time comes for Brady to make plays under pressure, he chokes miserably unless something he has little control over bails him out.

Tell you what, though - I'll make a point next fall to watch the NFL again and note when Brady actually makes a play under pressure. I want to be able to prove it doesn't happen very often. There are plenty of QBs who make far more plays under pressure than he does.

The guy is just over hyped and over rated, so you think he must do it more than he actually does.

The Tyree catch?  Really?  Eli just threw the ball in the air.  Tyree made the play.

Again, you do not see any of the good Brady does because you HATE the man.  Your argument is so flawed.
3/12/2013 10:57 AM
Eli had to avoid the sack first, and he did, but if it was Brady, he wouldn't have.  If you didn't get that, you really don't understand football at all.

My argument isn't flawed at all, which is why you have such little to say against it.

Brady just doesn't possess the skills other QBs do to make the plays under pressure like they do.

But you sure THINK he does because of the flashy stats, team wins, and all the hype surrounding both.

That's why he's over rated - there is a huge gap between his actual abilities and his perceived abilities.

3/12/2013 11:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIJCiEa6zTc
3/12/2013 11:35 AM
We tried that already.  He refuses to click on it.

He also completely ignored my post, which I guess isn't surprising.  He hates evidence.
3/12/2013 1:41 PM
Posted by bistiza on 3/12/2013 10:57:00 AM (view original):
Eli had to avoid the sack first, and he did, but if it was Brady, he wouldn't have.  If you didn't get that, you really don't understand football at all.

My argument isn't flawed at all, which is why you have such little to say against it.

Brady just doesn't possess the skills other QBs do to make the plays under pressure like they do.

But you sure THINK he does because of the flashy stats, team wins, and all the hype surrounding both.

That's why he's over rated - there is a huge gap between his actual abilities and his perceived abilities.

I have such little to say because your argument is a joke.  You are a joke.  No one here has seen your argument and thought to themselves..."Hmm...Bis does make a little sense here.  Brady might be a tad overrated."

No, they just laugh at you constant "Brady is overrated because i've see it.  He doesn't have skills that other have.  People don't talk about his failed mistakes!!!".  

Yes, i think Brady is one of the best ever because he's always been on a winning team (for over a decade!), has the stats to show he's one of the greatest, has the rings, has the awards.......and drum roll please....passes the eye test!  I don't know what "skills" you think you see or don't see....but 99.999999% of the world see's a QB that has a very high football IQ.  A QB that has a strong arm.  A QB that's played his WHOLE career in crappy weather and still has thrown perfect balls in the snow/rain/wind.

You my fine friend are just a fool that hates the man so much that you say he's overrated.  

Again....yawn.....you're putting me to sleep with your constant jibber jabber.
3/12/2013 2:58 PM
I have such little to say because your argument is a joke.  You are a joke.

*sighs deeply*

You do realize i could say your argument is a joke and you are a joke, too, and it does neither of us any good, right? Trying to insult me doesn't do anything.
No one here has seen your argument and thought to themselves..."Hmm...Bis does make a little sense here.  Brady might be a tad overrated."
 
First, you're wrong. burnsy has already said some of my points make at least some sense.

Second, even if you were right, it means nothing except those who are here don't agree with me. It doesn't mean anything else.
No, they just laugh at you constant "Brady is overrated because i've see it.  He doesn't have skills that other have.  People don't talk about his failed mistakes!!!". 
Brady's performance shows his lack of skills, especially when he's under pressure. The evidence is plentiful.

Very few Brady lovers even acknowledge he can make mistakes. This was demonstrated by several of you many pages ago right here in this thread.

Those are FACTS, but  facts do you no good because you'd rather deal with hype.
Yes, i think Brady is one of the best ever because he's always been on a winning team (for over a decade!),
So he's been carried by a talented team. That doesn't prove greatness.
has the stats to show he's one of the greatest,
Again, stats can be (and in his case, were) inflated by the play of others. They don't prove greatness by themselves.
has the rings, has the awards
His team carried him to the rings. The awards were voted on by fools who bought into the extreme hype. Neither establishes greatness except among other fools.
I don't know what "skills" you think you see or don't see....but 99.999999% of the world see's a QB that has a very high football IQ.
Sure, Brady has a high football IQ now, but when his team actually won it all, he didn't have all that knowledge. Ironically, the more knowledge he has, the more he chokes. That's not exactly a formula for greatness.

Other than football IQ, he's got none of the skills to actually MAKE PLAYS when the pressure is on. He's not fast or athletic. He doesn't have a cannon for an arm and he isn't exceptionally accurate when under pressure. He doesn't have great strength or abilities to throw off tacklers.

So what DOES he have? 

A conservative philosophy that limits his own mistakes so he doesn't mess up a talented team. The ability to be accurate when there is no pressure and short throws to help him when he does face pressure. A knowledge of the game (as you mentioned) that allows him to know how to take advantage of the skills of the players around him.

Brady's entire value is playing within a conservative system so that other players who actually have real skills and abilities can shine and he doesn't screw it up. Then when he's able to get stats because of those other players and the team wins because of those other players, he gets all the credit just for being the QB.

Add in the hype generated by those who can't (or refuse) to see that he doesn't actually have real skill and you have a host of people believing the guy is great when he's really just a bit above average.
3/12/2013 6:37 PM

Tom Brady Scouting Report - Scouts, Inc.

Grade: 96 | Key

Comment: Brady's anticipation, accuracy and timing in the passing game are outstanding. He continues to work best from the pocket and rarely makes plays with his legs to move the chains. His vision and ability to process information are second to none. He can pick defenses apart given time to scan the field. He has great poise, intelligence, instincts and leadership qualities that make him one of the best QBs of this generation.
3/12/2013 8:44 PM
I can't believe you argued that Roethlisberger has better accuracy than Tom Brady.
3/13/2013 6:35 AM
Yes, and the evidence he's using is one particular play, where Ben was quoted later as saying he regretted throwing the pass immediately, and thought the ball would be picked off.

Don't show him other evidence. He will ignore/dismiss it.
3/13/2013 9:09 AM
BL,

That report shows only that the person who wrote it has bought into the Brady hype. There are a lot of assertions there which are made on this hype.

For example, this person believes Brady's "vision and ability to process information are second to none", but this is built off of a perception created by Brady working within a system and barely getting touched. When he's under pressure, his vision and ability to process information decline at an incredible rate - far more than many QBs, meaning he's certainly not "second to none".

In fact, there are several QBs who EASILY have better vision and ability to process information, including Peyton, Rodgers, and Brees. Much like most of his abilities, Brady's vision and processing ability are a bit above average, but many people THINK its greater than it is because of the hype. To put it more bluntly, it is quite obvious the person who wrote this drinks the Brady kool-aid.
I can't believe you argued that Roethlisberger has better accuracy than Tom Brady.
I actually argued that Roethlisberger makes better plays under pressure than Brady, and that Brady wouldn't even have attempted the specific throw Ben made to win the Super Bowl, because he's too conservative and lacks the confidence in his own ability to get the job done (as he should). He would have chucked it out of bounds high over their heads, maybe, but Brady would never have put that ball anywhere near Holmes for fear of an INT (which is the main reason Brady throws so few INTs).

As for accuracy UNDER PRESSURE, I think Roethlisberger may very well exceed Brady there, as Brady's abilities drop off so sharply any time he faces pressure that any QB who actually can handle the pressure would be better, and Ben certainly fits that role.
Yes, and the evidence he's using is one particular play, where Ben was quoted later as saying he regretted throwing the pass immediately, and thought the ball would be picked off.
So what? This is just more evidence Brady never would have made the throw. You can say it was a smart move, but it turned out the throw itself was the smart move. If it's Brady back there, Kurt Warner gets another ring and another Super Bowl MVP after his toss to Fitzgerald a few minutes earlier wins the game. I don't think a Brady-led team would have gotten the job done there at the end.

You want to give me an example of a Brady play UNDER PRESSURE that was actually HIM make a play (not some lucky fluke or someone else bailing him out), feel free. It may have happened at some rare moment, but it sure isn't a common thing. He chokes far more often than he makes a play under pressure.
3/13/2013 9:23 AM
I showed you that he threw for 8 TD passes under pressure in 2011. Second most of any QB.  But you ignored that.
3/13/2013 9:25 AM
And holy ****, biz, its a football scout making that assertion above.  Are you saying he's so terrible at his job that he'd be so far off? You should apply to be a scout.
3/13/2013 9:49 AM
I find Brady's abilities under pressure to be so lacking I truly doubt the veracity of your statistic showing he threw 8 TDs under pressure. Even if it's true, then I doubt someone accurately labeled the situations as being under pressure.

Also, scouts are people, and are able to buy into hype the same as anyone else.

3/13/2013 9:50 AM
Are ALL the statistics misleading? Or is it possible you are wrong? Which is more likely?
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