All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
2/21/2013 1:29 PM
Which is funny, since bis' biggest argument is Brady's "failures". 

Brady's failures are not even THE argument, let alone the "biggest" argument I have.

The argument is you all think Brady is great because you ignore his failures. I don't see you ignoring any other QB's failures. You're even anxious to point out the errors made by Peyton Manning. So why can't you address those made by Brady?

Oh, that's right, because the moment you address his failings, he becomes the slightly above average QB I've always said he was, and the over rating you do becomes obvious even to yourselves. That's why you refuse to deal with his failings altogether.

It's 'the Brady rule' of dealing with NFL QB discussions - everyone's failures are game for discussion EXCEPT Tom Brady's. Maybe we should call it the 'Brady kool-aid' rule of over rating QBs.
Of course Brady has failings. Has anyone said he was perfect?
I haven't seen anyone other than me mention a single one of his failings. They are ignored out of convenience. Even when I bring them up, NO ONE has responded directly to the failings of Brady I mentioned. NO ONE. Again, how convenient for you Brady lovers.
Even with those failings, he's among the top two or three QB's in the game today, and among the top 10-20 all time.

Says the head of the church of Brady at the WIS boards.
Football outsiders has him as the best QB by DYAR in 2012, 2010, and 2009 (third in 2011).

Yet when he WAS replaced by Matt Cassel (see 2008), the team still won 11 games.  Looks like for all their analysis, the real scenario shows not much of a drop off.

It's funny, too, that your Football Outsiders says the player most similar to Brady over those three seasons is Trent Green from 2002-2004. That's exactly what I expected, though, since SO MANY of you have been talking about how great Green is and how he is going to the HOF and is "elite" and all.
but to say its a failing when even the official calling the game said that ruling it an incomplete pass was an "easy call" seems a bit much.  if anything, the "failing" in that case lies with the NFL.

Brady fumbled and it should have cost his team the game. It didn't because of the rules, and that's the NFL's fault.

That does not change the fact Brady fumbled and then got a "do over". When the pressure was on, he choked, period.

But of course I expected one or more of you to make excuses for Brady. That's how this works. You either refuse to address his failings, or you make excuses for him and show how it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

The "tuck rule" fumble that wasn't is all the ref's fault or the NFL's fault.

The throw to Welker that Brady completely blew was all Welker's fault.

I suppose the throw right into Marlin Jackson's arms was all someone else's fault too. Maybe the tooth fairy tried to pull Brady's tooth right then and it caused him to mess up the throw.

Brady doesn't fail, and when he does, it's someone else's fault. Yeah, uh huh, sure.
2/21/2013 1:45 PM
Says the head of the church of Brady at the WIS boards.

Not quite. I hate the Patriots. I'm just not retarded enough to completely ignore how good Brady is.

Yet when he WAS replaced by Matt Cassel (see 2008), the team still won 11 games.  Looks like for all their analysis, the real scenario shows not much of a drop off.

Cassel wasn't good in 2008. 18th in DYAR. That's a big drop off from Brady's performance. The Pats won 11 games in spite of him, not because of him.

It's funny, too, that your Football Outsiders says the player most similar to Brady over those three seasons is Trent Green from 2002-2004.

Green was great for those three years. He isn't considered a great QB because his peak was very short. 



2/21/2013 2:01 PM
So the Pats win in spite of Cassel, but because of Brady? That sounds like more Brady-worship warped logic when in fact the opposite could just as easily be said.

Green was above average those three years. He wasn't "elite" or the greatest QB ever or anything close - the same way Brady hasn't been "elite" or the greatest QB ever or anything close.



2/21/2013 2:07 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/21/2013 1:29:00 PM (view original):
Which is funny, since bis' biggest argument is Brady's "failures". 

Brady's failures are not even THE argument, let alone the "biggest" argument I have.

The argument is you all think Brady is great because you ignore his failures. I don't see you ignoring any other QB's failures. You're even anxious to point out the errors made by Peyton Manning. So why can't you address those made by Brady?

Oh, that's right, because the moment you address his failings, he becomes the slightly above average QB I've always said he was, and the over rating you do becomes obvious even to yourselves. That's why you refuse to deal with his failings altogether.

It's 'the Brady rule' of dealing with NFL QB discussions - everyone's failures are game for discussion EXCEPT Tom Brady's. Maybe we should call it the 'Brady kool-aid' rule of over rating QBs.
Of course Brady has failings. Has anyone said he was perfect?
I haven't seen anyone other than me mention a single one of his failings. They are ignored out of convenience. Even when I bring them up, NO ONE has responded directly to the failings of Brady I mentioned. NO ONE. Again, how convenient for you Brady lovers.
Even with those failings, he's among the top two or three QB's in the game today, and among the top 10-20 all time.

Says the head of the church of Brady at the WIS boards.
Football outsiders has him as the best QB by DYAR in 2012, 2010, and 2009 (third in 2011).

Yet when he WAS replaced by Matt Cassel (see 2008), the team still won 11 games.  Looks like for all their analysis, the real scenario shows not much of a drop off.

It's funny, too, that your Football Outsiders says the player most similar to Brady over those three seasons is Trent Green from 2002-2004. That's exactly what I expected, though, since SO MANY of you have been talking about how great Green is and how he is going to the HOF and is "elite" and all.
but to say its a failing when even the official calling the game said that ruling it an incomplete pass was an "easy call" seems a bit much.  if anything, the "failing" in that case lies with the NFL.

Brady fumbled and it should have cost his team the game. It didn't because of the rules, and that's the NFL's fault.

That does not change the fact Brady fumbled and then got a "do over". When the pressure was on, he choked, period.

But of course I expected one or more of you to make excuses for Brady. That's how this works. You either refuse to address his failings, or you make excuses for him and show how it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

The "tuck rule" fumble that wasn't is all the ref's fault or the NFL's fault.

The throw to Welker that Brady completely blew was all Welker's fault.

I suppose the throw right into Marlin Jackson's arms was all someone else's fault too. Maybe the tooth fairy tried to pull Brady's tooth right then and it caused him to mess up the throw.

Brady doesn't fail, and when he does, it's someone else's fault. Yeah, uh huh, sure.
Pick six, fumble, interception in OT. That's ONE game for Manning this past season. Is he overrated?
2/21/2013 2:08 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/21/2013 2:01:00 PM (view original):
So the Pats win in spite of Cassel, but because of Brady? That sounds like more Brady-worship warped logic when in fact the opposite could just as easily be said.

Green was above average those three years. He wasn't "elite" or the greatest QB ever or anything close - the same way Brady hasn't been "elite" or the greatest QB ever or anything close.



I'm not giving Brady extra credit because the Pats win a lot of games. I'm looking at his performance.

Cassel was bad in 2008. His DYAR was 458. His DVOA was 1.1%. In 2009 Brady's DYAR was 2,021. His DVOA was 40.4%.

If it was just the system that allowed Brady to be great, Cassel would have also been great. But he wasn't. He wasn't even good. He was a below average QB.

2/21/2013 2:09 PM
Biz, has anyone ever made an argument that was counter to your beliefs, that's caused you to reevaluate your opinion? If yes, can you share this example?
2/21/2013 2:17 PM
Pick six, fumble, interception in OT. That's ONE game for Manning this past season. Is he overrated?

No, because people talk about both the good and bad things he does. In fact, you mentioning his mistakes right here is more proof of that.

Funny, no one has mentioned Brady's bad games, but here you are mentioning one from Manning.
2/21/2013 3:04 PM
Biz, has anyone ever made an argument that was counter to your beliefs, that's caused you to reevaluate your opinion? If yes, can you share this example?
2/21/2013 3:10 PM
I've made several concessions in many debates, including on these boards.

As for reevaluating my entire opinion, the only way that is likely to be possible is if there is some new information from somewhere or something I hadn't been privy to before. Otherwise, providing me with the same information I've already reviewed isn't going to change anything.

2/21/2013 3:14 PM
So, I'll take that as a no.  It sounds as if you've never had a debate about something that really made you consider changing your opinion.  Which is what I expected.

Are you making a closing argument as I presented so we can end this?
2/21/2013 3:25 PM
Three picks against the Ravens in a playoff game, pick to Marlin Jackson, mis throw to Welker, a ummm (non) fumble in the tuck rule game, intentional grounding in the end zone against the Giants in the 2011 SB, 2 picks against the Broncos in the playoffs in 2005....anything you'd like to add?
2/21/2013 4:05 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/21/2013 3:04:00 PM (view original):
Biz, has anyone ever made an argument that was counter to your beliefs, that's caused you to reevaluate your opinion? If yes, can you share this example?
Actually, in the "is atheism a religion debate," bis gave in and conceded that atheism was in fact not a religion. It took like 30 pages, but it happened.
2/22/2013 9:23 AM
 It sounds as if you've never had a debate about something that really made you consider changing your opinion.  Which is what I expected.
When you're presenting me with information and arguments I've already heard before - most of it many times - you should not expect to make me consider changing my opinion.

After all, I've already considered everything you presented before you ever did so, and if it didn't make me consider changing my mind then, there is no reason to believe it will do so with one more presentation from you.

Unless, of course, you're so arrogant as to think I would reconsider my position because it's coming from you, but I'd like to think you're not that arrogant.
Are you making a closing argument as I presented so we can end this?

No. I'm still waiting for anyone to address Brady's failures, including the ones I specifically listed several times.
Three picks against the Ravens in a playoff game, pick to Marlin Jackson, mis throw to Welker, a ummm (non) fumble in the tuck rule game, intentional grounding in the end zone against the Giants in the 2011 SB, 2 picks against the Broncos in the playoffs in 2005....anything you'd like to add?

So given Brady fails about as much as any other QB does, as you've just said, why do you consider him to be so great?
Actually, in the "is atheism a religion debate," bis gave in and conceded that atheism was in fact not a religion.

No, I didn't.  I maintain atheism has all the features of a religion but doesn't want to be one because it purposefully wants to distance itself from religion.
2/22/2013 9:34 AM
So, you ready for a list of Mannings failures? Including eight one and dones in the playoffs?
2/22/2013 9:37 AM
I am asking if you ever changed your opinion on something you believed in based on a conversation or a debate with someone.  It has nothing to do with this conversation.  Based on what you've told me, it seems your answer is no.  You seem to care very much about "winning" debates, and care little about taking in opposing information and thinking about it.

I'm not sure what you're asking for when you want me to address Brady's failures.  Address them how?  They happened.  Every QB, and every great QB, has failed many, many times.
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