All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Braun/Cano/Granderson/ARod failed PED test?
6/6/2013 8:40 AM
  Actually, for the time being, it is just rumors. True or false, i don't know. When faced with jail time, people can deenounce people just to please the prosecutors. If it is true, these  guys are just stupid. Juicers will eventually get caught
6/6/2013 8:52 AM
Posted by sergei91 on 6/5/2013 8:51:00 PM (view original):
i agree this current situation is not exactly the same as clemens, bonds, mitchell report. i'm just going by the results of going after high profile mlb players in court tho. barry was convicted of a felony, i believe. but since he was out of baseball at the time and his trainer wouldn't testify against him, he basically got off with no punishment. clemens went to trial and his lawyer made mcnamee out to be a scumbag even tho he had 'proof' against clemens. clemens walked, i believe.
can bud suspend braun, arod, etc? of course he can. and if he does it will be appealed. not sure the difference between a real court case and what an arbitrator needs to make a decision, but mlb's arbitor sure screwed them in the *** with braun last time.
if it comes down to it, the pa's lawyers will paint the 'doctor' as a lying pile of **** who is only naming names because mlb promised to help him not go to jail for selling illegal drugs. he's already had an interview and denied everything, he was never a real doctor, and from what i've read he's been in trouble before with the irs, etc. not to mention he probably burned/destroyed every piece of evidence he had once mlb came a calling

Everything else aside, MLB's arbitrator didn't really screw them with Braun, the guy who handled the sample did.

The standard for conviction is so much higher than what MLB will have to do - in a criminal case you have to convince 12 people that someone is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.  MLB has to convince one person without the "beyond all reasonable doubt" standard.  And again, if it's just this guy naming names with nothing to back it up, I completely agree this will never go anywhere.  And Mike could very well be right that even if he has more than just his word, it won't be any kind of smoking gun.  But there's really no point in speculating at this point - we'll find out soon enough.

6/6/2013 9:48 AM

"Hi, I'm Ryan Braun, NL MVP.   You may have heard about my high testosterone "problem" with MLB.  Got any HGH?"


Just don't see that.

6/7/2013 10:07 AM
Posted by AlCheez on 6/6/2013 8:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by sergei91 on 6/5/2013 8:51:00 PM (view original):
i agree this current situation is not exactly the same as clemens, bonds, mitchell report. i'm just going by the results of going after high profile mlb players in court tho. barry was convicted of a felony, i believe. but since he was out of baseball at the time and his trainer wouldn't testify against him, he basically got off with no punishment. clemens went to trial and his lawyer made mcnamee out to be a scumbag even tho he had 'proof' against clemens. clemens walked, i believe.
can bud suspend braun, arod, etc? of course he can. and if he does it will be appealed. not sure the difference between a real court case and what an arbitrator needs to make a decision, but mlb's arbitor sure screwed them in the *** with braun last time.
if it comes down to it, the pa's lawyers will paint the 'doctor' as a lying pile of **** who is only naming names because mlb promised to help him not go to jail for selling illegal drugs. he's already had an interview and denied everything, he was never a real doctor, and from what i've read he's been in trouble before with the irs, etc. not to mention he probably burned/destroyed every piece of evidence he had once mlb came a calling

Everything else aside, MLB's arbitrator didn't really screw them with Braun, the guy who handled the sample did.

The standard for conviction is so much higher than what MLB will have to do - in a criminal case you have to convince 12 people that someone is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.  MLB has to convince one person without the "beyond all reasonable doubt" standard.  And again, if it's just this guy naming names with nothing to back it up, I completely agree this will never go anywhere.  And Mike could very well be right that even if he has more than just his word, it won't be any kind of smoking gun.  But there's really no point in speculating at this point - we'll find out soon enough.

the guy who handled the sample screwed mlb? i know they got rid of the arbitrator after his decision, didn't hear about the sample handler. i hope you agree that ryan braun got away with cheating on a technicality. and it goes to show that even a failed test can be weaseled away from with no punishment. so unless they have video proof or players/reputable people willing to testify against braun and arod that they saw them injest the steroids i don't have much faith in mlb's power to win a case like this. i read an article this morning saying that even evidence from phone records or delivery companies may not be enough to uphold the suspensions, if it comes down to it.
6/7/2013 10:17 AM
Of course Braun got away with cheating on a technicality, and the technicality was that his sample was handled "improperly" based on the defined procedures.  How did you NOT hear about the sample handler?
6/7/2013 11:00 AM
I'm not advocating Braun's innocence, but let's be honest - not following proper handling procedures is a big deal. These guys have a lot at stake and someone could easily taint a sample if they wanted to. Following the proper handling procedure is huge, no matter who it is.

Also, this whole thing stinks like the Mitchell investigation - "Tell us what we want to know or you're going to prison"..."Ok, we'll talk!!!". The guy is clearly going to name names to save himself, so how do we know how much is true? A lot of MLB's "evidence" so far seems like nothing more than guilty-by-association.

And what about someone like Melky? You can't suspend him for getting PEDs from this guy when as far as we know, those are the same PEDs he was already suspended for last season.

MLB is starting down a slippery slope here and I highly doubt they're going to make any of this stick.
6/7/2013 11:08 AM
There was no tampering alleged in Braun's situation, the sample was properly sealed, it just sat in a fridge over a weekend when it could/should have been sent directly to the testing site.

His testimony by itself is going to be worthless - as said before, it's going to be about the records he has, which as Mike pointed out, will only yield fruit if any of these guys were dumb enough to deal with him directly.
6/7/2013 11:23 AM
That also raises the question of whether or not purchasing PEDs constitutes "use". I realize if you buy steroids, it's not a huge jump to assume you used them, but I'm sure that's an argument that could be raised. Is a receipt for HGH enough to suspend a player? I don't know the exact wording in the drug policy.
6/7/2013 11:27 AM
That's a fair point, actually.  A-Rod could easily say "Yea, I bought these for my cousin.  I understand this looks bad.  But I did not use them."  How do you prove he's wrong?
6/7/2013 11:30 AM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/5/2013 3:34:00 PM (view original):
The document says
A player who tests positive for a Performance Enhancing Substance, or otherwise violates the Program through the use or possession of a Performance Enhancing Substance, will be subject to the discipline set forth below.
Obviously this will never sink in for you, but occasionally it's worth fact-checking yourself before you post...
From earlier in the thread - possession is a violation, so if A-Rod (or anyone else) was dumb enough to have bought them and had them shipped to him, use is irrelevant.
6/7/2013 11:34 AM
Didn't read that. Fair enough.
6/7/2013 12:12 PM
since cheez keeps bringing up the possession as if it's cut and dried, i'll defer to people who should know more about this that me and paste what they're saying (via espn.com articles):

Even with all we think we know about the case so far, it is not going to be easy for MLB to prove the things it needs to prove to nail A-Rod and Ryan Braun and the alleged 18 others in its crosshairs.

 

 

As far as we know, they have no positive drug samples on any of these players, just some handwritten records from a man whose word is in serious question -- we know that he tried to pass himself off as a doctor -- and who, if the latest reports are to be believed, is desperate for money and willing to sell his story for the best possible deal.

 

 

That automatically casts doubt on anything Bosch tells anyone about anything, the same way Brian McNamee's story about Roger Clemens was forever tainted by a shady past and a clear resentment of the man he was testifying against.

 

 

Maybe Rodriguez is banking on that -- that Bosch is too disreputable a character to bring him down -- and that MLB's case will never convince an arbitrator, the same way a federal prosecutor could not convince a jury that Clemens should go down for perjury.

6/7/2013 12:17 PM
Anthony Bosch, the center of MLB's investigation, is not exactly a model witness, having allegedly tried to shake down money from players such as Rodriguez, as well as dodge what is looking like various legal troubles from the state of Florida. Nor is MLB's investigative unit covering itself in ethical glory by paying for documents and pursuing sketchy legal courses of action in its attempt to compel Bosch to cooperate.

The real issue is baseball's attempt to suspend players for their association with a wellness clinic, without actual positive-test violations of the league's drug policy. Melky Cabrera, the one player linked to Biogenesis who has tested positive, already served his 50-game suspension. Unless documentation shows --assuming Bosch's documentation is better, say, than Brian McNamee's decade-old syringes and gauze in a Coke can -- that Cabrera was still using PEDs after his suspension last season, it seems inconceivable that baseball would be able to suspend him again for essentially discovering the source of the original offense.

 

 

Equally disturbing is that if Nelson Cruz or Gio Gonzalez or Alex Rodriguez or Cabrera (again) are to be suspended for soliciting Biogenesis, baseball will have to reconcile that punishment with the knowledge that each of those players beat the vaunted drug-testing program, for none failed a test.

 

 

Secondarily, Selig seems prepared to enter even murkier space. Without failed tests or other spectacular evidence from Bosch regarding PED use, baseball must decide if it is willing to suspend players simply for associating with disreputable organizations, the way the old, pre-union commissioners banned players and coaches (Leo Durocher) and retired players (Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle) for being associated with gambling. Having already lost one case on appeal because of failures in the chain of custody of evidence, for what exactly could baseball punish Braun?

6/7/2013 12:23 PM

One thing MLB seems determined to do is suspend multiple players twice for actions relating to the same offense, namely taking PEDs and then lying about not having taken them. Could that strategy work?

It's probably going to be extremely difficult. For one thing, baseball has never tried this. For another, the union will likely mount a hellacious challenge to that approach. More on this in a bit.

Melky Cabrera, Colon, and Grandal have all already served suspensions for violations of the league's drug policy. Is this kind of double penalty covered anywhere in the Joint Drug Agreement? If not, on what grounds would the league propose to have a double penalty (i.e., 100 games for first-time offenders rather than 50) stick?

This strategy could also become problematic. As Thurm explains, unless authenticated and verified Biogenesis documents link a previously suspended player to use, possession, sale, or distribution of PEDs separate from the drugs that had triggered earlier positive tests, a second suspension could amount to a second punishment for the same, initial violation. If MLB were to adopt the A-Rod–and–Braun approach, it could seek both the PED-use penalty and the lying penalty against Cabrera, Colon, and Grandal. All three have already been suspended once, and two more suspensions would equal three, which, according to MLB's drug policy, would trigger a lifetime ban. Since it's not at all clear if Cabrera, Colon, and Grandal violated the league's policy in an incident separate from the one for which they've already been nailed, there's an absurd scenario by which they could be forever stripped of their ability to play in the majors as a result of, essentially, a single transgression.

6/7/2013 12:26 PM
And now we have a league determined to beat back any criticism of its policies, even if it means suspending minor leaguers with flimsy evidence because they can't defend themselves, firing arbitrators for making honest decisions with which the league didn't agree, and building cases based largely on the testimony of a broke alleged drug dealer.
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