All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > What makes a good 3 pt shooter?
3/6/2013 2:56 PM
I used to think at DIII something like 70 PER, 60 SPD, 50 BH would produce a guy around 36-38% shooter.  I would add ten for DII.   Is this way off?
3/6/2013 2:58 PM
Someone who makes a lot of 3pt shots.
3/6/2013 3:37 PM
I'm not sure, but I have jotted down some notes from the past (same team, so apples to apples as far as what defense they face, etc):

DIII

From my Maryville team a couple seasons back:

Guard A: 58 SPD, 46 BH, 97 PER. 47.0% as a sophomore, 47.6% as a junior, 49.5% as a senior

Guard B: 47 SPD, 54 BH, 83 PER. 44.8% as a sophomore, 47.0% as a junior, 39.8% as a senior
Guard C: 81 SPD, 65 BH, 72 PER. 36.3% as a sophomore, 39.9% as a junior

A was a SG his whole career, C was a point guard his whole career. B played SG for two years and then split between SG and PG his senior year. A had the highest distro of the three


From my Whitworth team last year

Ware: 92 SPD, 72 BH, 93 PER. 34.7% as a junior, 39.3% as a senior
Gilyard: 54 SPD, 57 BH, 89 PER. 39.3% as a junior, 41.5% as a senior

Ware came off the bench at PG, Gilyard played SF. Distro was the same. 

DII

From my Kentucky Wesleyan team last year

Cullens: 57 SPD, 72 BH, 82 PER, 41.1% as a sophomore, 47.8% as a junior so far
Stanhope: 50 SPD, 76 BH, 90 PER. 39.1% as a junior, still under 100 attempts as a senior (but shooting 49%)


Neither play PG. Cullens has more distro. 

I only included folks with 100 or more attempts, and I obviously listed the stats that people think affect three-point shooting. I can draw no conclusions except that PER is important and not-being-a-PG is important. 
3/6/2013 4:09 PM
I don't have much input, but Anthony Boddie, the second best 3FG% from my DePauw team in school history (47.4% for his career) had approximately 90 SPD/99 PER/50 BH. 

I'm still trying to figure out what makes a great three point shooter though, because I've had a number of SF's with speeds in the 50's-60's and PER's in the 70's-80's with low BH (30's-40's) who have been pretty awful three-point shooters (out of the triangle).

3/6/2013 4:53 PM
My very unscientific baseline for a good to great 3pt shooter in D3 is about 70 each in Spd, Per, and BH.  If the three add up to about 210 in some reasonable way (e.g. Speed isn't insanely low), then he should be a good shooter in general.

3/6/2013 5:00 PM
One thing that can up the % is a great passing PG, especially one with high IQ, BH and SPD (throw in ATH as a luxury). Such a player can be set to low distribution and consistently penetrate and kick out to the scoring shooter. Remember, the HD team is not a collection of separate parts, but parts that work together, or not so much together, depending on how the players fit together.
3/6/2013 5:04 PM
hey..someone I remember from freedom conference wooden when I first started is still here. Cool stuff. 
3/6/2013 5:06 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 3/6/2013 3:37:00 PM (view original):
I'm not sure, but I have jotted down some notes from the past (same team, so apples to apples as far as what defense they face, etc):

DIII

From my Maryville team a couple seasons back:

Guard A: 58 SPD, 46 BH, 97 PER. 47.0% as a sophomore, 47.6% as a junior, 49.5% as a senior

Guard B: 47 SPD, 54 BH, 83 PER. 44.8% as a sophomore, 47.0% as a junior, 39.8% as a senior
Guard C: 81 SPD, 65 BH, 72 PER. 36.3% as a sophomore, 39.9% as a junior

A was a SG his whole career, C was a point guard his whole career. B played SG for two years and then split between SG and PG his senior year. A had the highest distro of the three


From my Whitworth team last year

Ware: 92 SPD, 72 BH, 93 PER. 34.7% as a junior, 39.3% as a senior
Gilyard: 54 SPD, 57 BH, 89 PER. 39.3% as a junior, 41.5% as a senior

Ware came off the bench at PG, Gilyard played SF. Distro was the same. 

DII

From my Kentucky Wesleyan team last year

Cullens: 57 SPD, 72 BH, 82 PER, 41.1% as a sophomore, 47.8% as a junior so far
Stanhope: 50 SPD, 76 BH, 90 PER. 39.1% as a junior, still under 100 attempts as a senior (but shooting 49%)


Neither play PG. Cullens has more distro. 

I only included folks with 100 or more attempts, and I obviously listed the stats that people think affect three-point shooting. I can draw no conclusions except that PER is important and not-being-a-PG is important. 
per your request in the other thread, here is my take on your info here. first and foremost, there are SO many factors that play into the success of a particular player, on offense, the data here doesnt even come close to capturing all the factors at work. with so much missing, its basically impossible to deduce anything from this data. the strength of your schedule and the strength of the rest of your team on offense are massive factors, which makes comparing data from one season to the next EXTREMELY difficult and dangerous. when i was working to build my press based systems back when i was a young coach playing really hard, i would build almost the same team over and over, playing almost the same schedule over and over, and STILL found it very hard to wrestle with the season to season variation. 

were guards A, B, and C all sophs together? even if so, "apples to apples" doesnt tell you what kind of apples you have! a high per, low spd/bh (leaving out ath, lp, and iq makes these comparisons somewhat meaningless) type guard is going to be *much* more effective playing against weaker opponents. so a player like guard A putting up better numbers than guard B can mean very different things, even being on the same team, with the same team mates, with the same opponents. additionally, is that just fg% you are listing? or 3pt%? the thread is about 3pt% but those figures are pretty high for 3pt%. still, when comparing fg% OR 3pt%, the # of shots taken, minutes played, and the assortment of shots, are all important.

so to recap - to effectively compare the performance of players, you'd need to look at a large number of things. with only half the players' relevant ratings (i guess LP is not as important if you are talking 3pt%!), with only half of their relevant stats, without the game settings you used, without knowing the strength of opponents, and without knowing the look and feel of your team, its going to be basically impossible to make ANY meaningful comparison or conclusions. one of the biggest mistakes coaches make is drawing conclusions on data when substantial factors are missing, and so rather than try to draw conclusions on the incomplete data, i thought it was more pertinent to point out how incomplete the data was - and thus, why you cannot draw conclusions.
3/6/2013 5:22 PM
All of those stats are 3-point percentages. I originally jotted down those notes in response to a thread speculating on how big an impact SPD and BH had on PER, which is why I didn't include ATH and LP and the like. Doing the best I can to answer questions though: 

*Maryville: A and B were a year ahead of C, so they had slightly higher IQ (don't remember how much higher). I remember A had ATH in the high 40s, but I don't remember the other two. 

*Whitworth: Ware and Gilyard were in the same class, but Gilyard closed with IQ a half letter above (A+ vs A). Gilyard had 46 ATH, Ware had 44. 

*KWC: Stanhope's IQ is two-half letters ahead of Cullens right now (A+ vs A-), it was probably comparably ahead last year. Stanhope's ATH is 54, Cullens' is 63. 

The place where you initially disagreed with me was whether being at PG hurt your three-point shooting or not, so I thought I'd explain what drove me to that conclusion. My third Maryville team had to replace just three players, all backups. However, one of those backups I lost was my PG. A and B had been splitting time at SG, so I moved A to backup PG and kept B at SG. Both shot 47% from three as juniors. With that one change, everything else the same, A's three-point percentage dropped all the way to under 40%. 

I know that's only one case, but it seemed pretty extreme to me, and all the other variables were held as constant as I could make them. It seemed to be confirmed by the study of Gilyard vs Ware. And Cullens is currently outshooting my KWC PG, who has higher SPD (by 16), higher BH (by 16), higher PER (by 6), same IQ, and same distro. 
3/6/2013 10:14 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 3/6/2013 2:56:00 PM (view original):
I used to think at DIII something like 70 PER, 60 SPD, 50 BH would produce a guy around 36-38% shooter.  I would add ten for DII.   Is this way off?
I think it also depends a lot on distro and the how good the rest of your team is. If you have a fairly even balance of distro and guys set at 0 or -1 I find that people shoot a lot better because they aren't forcing shots.

Generally at D2 I will keep a player at -1 until they hit 80 then set them to 0.
3/7/2013 12:09 AM
My SG is a little higher in those 3 categories and is shooting about 38% from 3 pt. range.

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=2288864

I think he's set at -1
3/7/2013 6:06 PM
These are my main guards from my UT Chattanooga(Wooden) team. We finished ranked #17 with a 29-2 record. As a team we shot 943 threes & made 400.

Joe Keach Sr. SG 80 61 3 92 3 14 99 72 42 42 89 47 C+ 644
Wesley Selby Jr. SG 48 86 36 88 9 53 97 58 38 86 89 18 B+ 706
Jeffery Wilson Sr. PG 58 92 2 50 2 20 94 99 87 70 85 44 B 703
Billy Huff Sr. SG 83 63 21 66 21 32 87 91 56 73 89 35 B- 717

Team profile: http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=3499

Shot 42% as a team. Ran Triangle/Press with 4 guards

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