Posted by tarvolon on 4/9/2013 10:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 4/9/2013 3:20:00 PM (view original):Does this really carry all the way through? Is my 85 ATH, 35 SPD guy going to be able to guard my opponent's 30 ATH, 90 SPD guy? That might be true, but it would be somewhat unexpected. At least to me.
Posted by tarvolon on 4/8/2013 10:08:00 PM (view original):there is not really a consensus on the issue (others havent really commented), but my firm belief is that defense does NOT work on a rating by rating type basis. i dont think HD as a whole works like that. i believe abilities are computed - a guard's defensive ability is primarily the combo of ath, spd, def, and def iq. if hes get a defensive ability X, he is going to guard an opposing guard approximately just as well if he has a significant speed advantage, or disadvantage, or neither.
ATH is important too. I'm not sure how ATH compares to speed, but they're both important in guards, and I try to just get as much ATH as I can without sacrificing too much speed. Defensively, I usually just focus on relative speed. At guard especially, and somewhat at SF, I'm usually reasonably comfortable as long as my guard doesn't have a big (10+) SPD disadvantage with the guy he's guarding. If he has as much or close to as much SPD, I'm good. If not, he ends up fouling a whole lot. So I just try to get a guy who will have close to as much SPD as the guards on the schedule.
With ATH, I try to get 60+ with every player on the court, but I'll take as low as 30 in a guard (D3) if he's very fast and good at other things. With frontcourt guys, I try not to go below 40 ATH, but I'll only do 40 ATH if I'm really desperate or they're amazing in other things.
With defense, I try to go 60+ with every player but will recruit as low as 25 (high) or 40 (avg) if I'm desperate. I figure those guys have a chance to hit 60, but at worst they're mid-40s.
I also try not to recruit two players with the same weakness. If I've just signed a 70 ATH, 70 DEF, 40 REB big, my priority in the next post player will be REB. If I sign a 35 ATH, 60 SPD guard, the next guy needs to be fast.
This is all for man defenses. Press and zone are a little different.
And of course, this is all my trial and error from playing for a grand total of nine months and never making a Final Four. So TIFWIW
it could go either way, when you think about making a sim engine from scratch. you could compare all these ratings and build all these complex effects, but much experience makes me strongly feel that is not the case. further, the level of sophistication in the sim engine is at a fairly constant level - doing things like, having a guy get open more against a guy with less spd but more ath def, and conversely, getting defended harder when you dont break away - that is a level of sophistication above and beyond the rest of the sim engine.
its hard to be sure about something like this, and there are probably a couple exceptions, but im 95% sure or more that absent a couple key exceptions, its aggregate abilities, not ratings, that dictate performance.
just in case anyone is curious, one of those key exceptions would be the impact of per on 3 point shots. still, there is a function of an aggregate (primarily spd, bh, per) that dictates overall quality, but there is clearly some variation within those abilities. against crappy defensive teams, strong per, lower spd/bh is more successful than against tough teams. most likely this is the result of some sort of 2 step process - how open are you - then how well do you take the shot.
I haven't been playing a tenth as long as you (okay, maybe a tenth), but I have noticed that my low SPD point guards have a tendency to get in foul trouble much quicker than my high SPD point guards, even if the low SPD ones have just as good DEF and higher ATH to compensate.
can an 85 ath 35 spd guy defend a 30 ath, 90 spd scoring guard? no, not at all - but thats not a fair comparison. that 90 speed is absolutely huge for offense, the aggregate value for offense ability of 30 ath 90 spd is vastly higher than the aggregate value for defensive ability (of a guard), with 85 ath 35 spd.
heres what im saying. if a 60 ath, 80 speed, 60 defense guard is roughly the same quality as a 80 ath, 60 spd, 60 def guard, then each of those players should be roughly equally good at defending an opposing guard - regardless of if that guard has 90 speed or 60, with comparable net offensive ability. one guy being -10 speed vs the other being -30 is not a difference the game is directly penalizing you for - there is nothing looking at it going wow, that one guy is way faster, hes going to get open *way* more.
now, are there indirect differences? sure. the higher spd guard will have more steals, and in a press, fewer fouls. the higher ath guard will do a little better on fg%. thats just the difference in the weighting of the different attributes in different calculations in the simulation. but if you go back to that 60/80/60 guard being as good as 80/60/60 guard (which may or may not be true), those differences are roughly going to cancel out, on average. of course in some situations you might prefer the steals, in others, the lower fg%.
so, im not saying the 60 spd and 80 spd defenders are the same - im saying that if you consider their defensive ability roughly a wash, that is going to hold true guarding a speed of comparable, lesser, or greater speed. the game IS looking at the defensive ratings and using them differently, it IS NOT looking at specific defensive ratings against specific offensive ratings. it does, of course, compare defensive aggregate abilities to offensive aggregate abilities.
hopefully thats a little clearer, re-reading my original, i think some parts were confusing... this is, of course, just a theory, so i could be wrong (but i doubt it).
i think this sort of thinking is a central point to understanding many aspects of the way the sim engine works, the whole individual rating comparison vs aggregate ability comparison thing comes into play in most facets of the game. like rebounding, if a 60 ath 80 reb big is equal to an 80 ath 70 reb big, for rebounding, those bigs should be roughly as good against the opposing big regardless of if the opposing big has more/less/equal ath or reb. its the aggregate ability that is used, not the individual ratings being compared. some things there aren't as complex aggregates, like ft shooting, which is seemingly just a function of ft rating and fatigue. but for those complex aggregates - defensive ability, offensive ability, rebounding ability, etc - im pretty sure its the aggregates that are compared.
note that this still leaves room for slightly different aggregates to be used in different equations within a larger scenario. clearly, stealing ability is a complex aggregate - but spd is weighted highly. in the same possession, that guard might also have to defend an actual shot, assuming the steal doesnt succeed, and his spd can be weighted slightly, in the defense of the shot aggregate ability. just like on offense, im pretty confident theres a 2 step approach (or more), otherwise i cannot explain how high per guards with lower spd/per, might be the same effectiveness as a lower per higher spd/bh guard, but against a crap opponent, the high per guy will outperform, and against a tough opponent (defensively), the higher spd/bh guy will outperform. i assume there step 1 is something like, how open are you, how good of a shot are you taking? and then when you take it, that lp/per really comes into play. so there is still a lot of flexibility, without every doing things like "hey guard X is way faster than guard Y so he must get really open on his cuts".
that last part is where i feel i really got confusing in the first post - i start by saying those 60/80/60 and 80/60/60 guards are going to be equal against any opponent of equal ability. well, the offensive steps seem to be more complex - there seem to be multiple steps in the simulation. *but within each step, its still offensive aggregates that are used*. that is really the key to my theory, you can have several equations within a single possession, to simulate something like defense (where there could be a steal, block, shot make, shot miss) or offense (where you might figure how open a player is, and then how good of a shot he takes). the key is that each step, whether there is 1 or several, are still comparisons of aggregates, not individual ratings.
4/10/2013 11:43 AM (edited)