All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > coach_billyg - A Manefesto on 1st Class Usership
4/25/2013 10:20 AM
I think more people play for free/low cost then you think but of course don't have that information except for those that put out their alts. I also think that this topic went from div3 recruiting to div2 recruiting at some point and agree that recruiting at the two are different. My point is really just about the math and I just don't understand how someone can have the funds to scout mutiple guys across the country at div 3. And finding those guys that do probably tells you they do the same thing at all the levels. I don't think my opinion should anger you and I'm not going to change my mind that those with championships with only one team in a world are true champions. I'll live in my fuzzy world where perception matters and others are welcome to live in their world where it doesn't.
4/25/2013 11:24 AM
Posted by tbird9423 on 4/25/2013 10:20:00 AM (view original):
I think more people play for free/low cost then you think but of course don't have that information except for those that put out their alts. I also think that this topic went from div3 recruiting to div2 recruiting at some point and agree that recruiting at the two are different. My point is really just about the math and I just don't understand how someone can have the funds to scout mutiple guys across the country at div 3. And finding those guys that do probably tells you they do the same thing at all the levels. I don't think my opinion should anger you and I'm not going to change my mind that those with championships with only one team in a world are true champions. I'll live in my fuzzy world where perception matters and others are welcome to live in their world where it doesn't.
I have only 1 D 3 team, in the NAC in Allen. Over the last 15 seasons each team in the conference has earned an average of $6227.77 in postseason money per season. That buys a lot of FSS... before making blanket statements about perception it would behoove you to consider all legitimate possibilities...
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4/25/2013 11:39 AM
Posted by angmar on 4/24/2013 11:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ryrun on 4/24/2013 9:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 4/24/2013 8:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie on 4/24/2013 8:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/24/2013 8:04:00 PM (view original):
Bjb's suggestion a few pages back is a good one.
the one about only scouting guys from one state, and only signing guys you scouted? i totally agree with that idea, but its hard to enforce, it seems. not coincidentally, going back since FSS has existed, ive self-enforced that rule between my d1 teams. i NEVER scouted the same state with both d1 schools. at UK and a&m, id have to decide who could scout the border states between them, when i had big classes and/or bad local recruits with both (it was mostly arkansas in the middle, if i remember correctly). it does hurt if you recruit far and wide, which i would definitely do more with UK now, but didnt back then. i would only sign scouted players (except internationals), no exceptions, to GUARANTEE i couldnt be helping myself with FSS data. it just gave me peace of mind, i was more competitive back then, even though i was less engaged, and i simply could not tolerate a title on my resume, that was in any way, to any extent, tarnished, in my mind.

i just keep going back to, this is a for fun game and nothing more, and cannot see how this issue trumps that should-be massive overriding theme. plus, as a strategy lover, i just dont believe the hyper competitive strategy loving coaches who are generally the most successful coaches, are out there cheating, either. i cant relate to that. i can, however, see some idiot who sucks at the game cheating. but im much, much less concerned about that. 
It is not about cheating billyg ... at least not for me.

If you would not be comfortable with 2 different coaches on 2 different teams sharing the information that you have available when you have 2 teams in the same world, then we shouldn't allow it.

If I had Texas A&M and you had Kentucky and if someone considered it collusion if I told you (and you, in turn told me) these things about our teams.

1. Exactly how much money I have to recruit with.
2. Exactly who I was going to recruit.
3. Exactly which states i was going to scout with FSS.
4. Exactly how much money I was spending on each recruit.
5. I told you all the potentials in all the states I scouted, and you told me the potentials for all the states you scouted.

If we can not do that with 2 teams and have it be legal, then one person should not have 2 teams in the same world ... because it is exactly the same thing.

Now, just because you at Kentucky told me at Texas A&M these things, it does not mean that I would use that information ... or that you would use the information I told you. We are only sharing the info.

If it "IS OK" for the Texas A&M and Kentucky coaches to share that information every time they recruit, then it is ok for one coach to have 2 teams.

I say it is NOT OK. Where is my logic flawed?
+1   This is a good point of view

What if they just made each schools' FSS map public?  You can still pay for it, so that strategic aspect isn't gone, but I can go see the states Kentucky has scouted... even if they publicized it after the recruiting period was over (to keep some secrecy/strategy involved), it's just an idea.  That way I could quickly go to someone with two teams in one world, see that Team A scouted Florida, Team B didn't, but Team B signed a couple high potential guys from Florida... be pretty damning evidence.

I'm sure some people wouldn't want their FSS information publicized for strategy reasons, though... not sure how strongly people feel about that.  But this would eliminate a lot of the problems while still keeping FSS costing money to utilize (since some don't want it to be free).
The problem with that idea may be that ocassionally I've had to sign guys "blind" when I was running out of money and couldn't scout the state, having to go off of just their starting ratings and "hoping" they had good potentials.  In that case, it might look funny signing that guy without scouting the state and now all of a sudden all of those babies on the two ID witch hunt are looking for that "second" school involved.

Also, JUCOS and transfers make it look like you recruited at a distance when you didn't. And then there is the declining cost of fss late after players start signing ... Making any conclusions based on someone's roster makeup is weak at best.
4/25/2013 11:56 AM
Posted by tbird9423 on 4/25/2013 10:20:00 AM (view original):
I think more people play for free/low cost then you think but of course don't have that information except for those that put out their alts. I also think that this topic went from div3 recruiting to div2 recruiting at some point and agree that recruiting at the two are different. My point is really just about the math and I just don't understand how someone can have the funds to scout mutiple guys across the country at div 3. And finding those guys that do probably tells you they do the same thing at all the levels. I don't think my opinion should anger you and I'm not going to change my mind that those with championships with only one team in a world are true champions. I'll live in my fuzzy world where perception matters and others are welcome to live in their world where it doesn't.
tbird, i've scouted the entire country except california before at d3.

With 5 openings, carryover, and good conference postseason earnings, I missed the first 2 days of recruiting. The morning after signings, I scouted the entire country except Cali for ~$17,000, then signed 5 guys for under $1000 each. And I've done the same thing on slightly smaller scale (say, 40 states) several other times. 
4/25/2013 12:15 PM
Posted by wronoj on 4/25/2013 11:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tbird9423 on 4/25/2013 10:20:00 AM (view original):
I think more people play for free/low cost then you think but of course don't have that information except for those that put out their alts. I also think that this topic went from div3 recruiting to div2 recruiting at some point and agree that recruiting at the two are different. My point is really just about the math and I just don't understand how someone can have the funds to scout mutiple guys across the country at div 3. And finding those guys that do probably tells you they do the same thing at all the levels. I don't think my opinion should anger you and I'm not going to change my mind that those with championships with only one team in a world are true champions. I'll live in my fuzzy world where perception matters and others are welcome to live in their world where it doesn't.
tbird, i've scouted the entire country except california before at d3.

With 5 openings, carryover, and good conference postseason earnings, I missed the first 2 days of recruiting. The morning after signings, I scouted the entire country except Cali for ~$17,000, then signed 5 guys for under $1000 each. And I've done the same thing on slightly smaller scale (say, 40 states) several other times. 
I've never even considered doing this, but I suppose it does open things up a little bit.  Might give it a go next recruiting cycle.
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