All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > the real problem (not multiple team argument)
5/1/2013 4:03 AM
Posted by tbird9423 on 5/1/2013 12:29:00 AM (view original):
One thing I know is a cheater often thinks he isn't a cheater.  I cuss the people that run red lights and then drive 10 over the speed limit all day.

It's hard for me to analyze in a vacuum, but its your thread.  Yes, Wis needs to do a better job of enforcing rules and yes Wis needs to do a better job of having rules.  We could all police better by becoming "rats" and sending in every email that appears to be collusion.  But we're talking about a database here.  The one thing that will be relatively easy (except for the strange exception) is finding out who is controlling what teams.  If someone responds that they are playing with a household member, than that should be posted because no matter what anyone says, there is going to be at least some negative perception around that and people should be able to choose to avoid that if they so wish. 
   I guess I like combining all the ideas together and if someone wants to have one team they access from work with their girlfriend's credit card and another from their parents/kids house with their credit card, etc, etc then let them have the success that comes with that.  That is probably the same guy who spends all day talking about how he made it to the final four in a fantasy game and is probably good for our society to let him have that little victory.  Maybe its one less beating for his wife, kid or the family pet.  
  
Yes, that last little bit is just disturbing.
5/1/2013 4:22 AM
lets not bring family pets into this discussion
5/1/2013 12:43 PM (edited)
Posted by tbird9423 on 5/1/2013 12:29:00 AM (view original):
One thing I know is a cheater often thinks he isn't a cheater.  I cuss the people that run red lights and then drive 10 over the speed limit all day.

It's hard for me to analyze in a vacuum, but its your thread.  Yes, Wis needs to do a better job of enforcing rules and yes Wis needs to do a better job of having rules.  We could all police better by becoming "rats" and sending in every email that appears to be collusion.  But we're talking about a database here.  The one thing that will be relatively easy (except for the strange exception) is finding out who is controlling what teams.  If someone responds that they are playing with a household member, than that should be posted because no matter what anyone says, there is going to be at least some negative perception around that and people should be able to choose to avoid that if they so wish. 
   I guess I like combining all the ideas together and if someone wants to have one team they access from work with their girlfriend's credit card and another from their parents/kids house with their credit card, etc, etc then let them have the success that comes with that.  That is probably the same guy who spends all day talking about how he made it to the final four in a fantasy game and is probably good for our society to let him have that little victory.  Maybe its one less beating for his wife, kid or the family pet.  
  
anyone else get the sense tbird is talking about himself, here?

i mean really, who else comes up with this stuff? ;)
5/1/2013 10:20 PM
I'm not the best coach by far, but one thing I do know is IP addresses.  The ports all stay the same from one house off of one router and modem.  Let's say I have 4 laptops at home anmd we all get on line at the same time it'll look like this.  10.10.12.2, 10.10.12.3, 10.10.12.4, & 10.10.12.5.  All port 5001, with gatewayof 10.10.12.1 and subnet of 255.255.255.0.  Now if all computer were turned off and turned back on, using DHCP, my IP addresses will be different.  Arouter, server have multiple addresses which your PC pulls automatically when booted up.  I could log on 3 different times a day and have different IP addresses if I'm using wireless.  If I'm using a LAN connection then yes this would work, but you would be only catching people with LAN static IP addresses that never change.  I would vote for credit card.  You're process will no go through if you use your credit card with a different billing address than when you applied for the credit card.  I can't change my billing address or my payment would not be processed.  Just my opinion
5/2/2013 1:30 AM (edited)
Posted by terps21234 on 5/1/2013 10:20:00 PM (view original):
I'm not the best coach by far, but one thing I do know is IP addresses.  The ports all stay the same from one house off of one router and modem.  Let's say I have 4 laptops at home anmd we all get on line at the same time it'll look like this.  10.10.12.2, 10.10.12.3, 10.10.12.4, & 10.10.12.5.  All port 5001, with gatewayof 10.10.12.1 and subnet of 255.255.255.0.  Now if all computer were turned off and turned back on, using DHCP, my IP addresses will be different.  Arouter, server have multiple addresses which your PC pulls automatically when booted up.  I could log on 3 different times a day and have different IP addresses if I'm using wireless.  If I'm using a LAN connection then yes this would work, but you would be only catching people with LAN static IP addresses that never change.  I would vote for credit card.  You're process will no go through if you use your credit card with a different billing address than when you applied for the credit card.  I can't change my billing address or my payment would not be processed.  Just my opinion
the reason IP addresses are somewhat useful is because if you already have 2 IDs, and you look in the web logs around the same time, they will usually show up with the same IP. but i think we are in agreement, using data connected with a CC like billing address is far superior than trying to match IPs, which are not usually stored in a DB (and as we both pointed out, even if it was, it would only have the most recent IP). this is coach_billyg/gillispie jus

however, im not sure im following what you are saying in the first couple sentences, or what you are getting at.
"The ports all stay the same from one house off of one router and modem.  Let's say I have 4 laptops at home anmd we all get on line at the same time it'll look like this.  10.10.12.2, 10.10.12.3, 10.10.12.4, & 10.10.12.5.  All port 5001, with gatewayof 10.10.12.1 and subnet of 255.255.255.0."

you are correct from an internal standpoint, and you definitely have the basic understanding of IP addresses down :) im assuming you were in some way responding to my post to hughes about how the shared IP address isnt so much of a problem as he made it out to be, as you have to be able to uniquely identify the return traffic, and one simple way is to modify the port. that is totally correct too though, and i think i see where the confusion is.

you are correct that when each of those computers sends a packet, they are sending it with their own IP address. for TCP traffic, you are also correct that all 4 machines will send out with a return port of 5001, the standard port used for TCP traffic. however, what you are missing is the network address translation (NAT) that must occur at the gateway (the router in the home, in this case), to allow sharing of a single externally routable IP addresses between multiple devices. im sure wikipedia has a good summary, if you are interested in learning more, just look for NAT.

as you probably know, NO two computers can share an IP address, on a network (a private network, like the LAN at home, or a public one, like the internet). thats why in your example, computer one is 10.10.12.2, and computer two is 10.10.12.3. however, as you probably also know, those are private IP addresses, just like 192.168.*.* - they are not externally routable. you cannot send a packet to WIS and say hey, send back a response to 10.10.12.2 on port 5001 - 10.10.12.2 cannot be resolved using DNS. so, the router must do some work to make this all work. suppose the IP address you get from your ISP is 1.2.3.4, an externally routable IP address, that is unique on the whole internet. so, the router is going to take your 10.10.12.2 and convert it to 1.2.3.4, so the traffic can come back. im thinking you might know this - that is network address translation being applied to the IP. however, when computer 1 (.2) and computer 2 (.3) both send traffic out on port 5001, the router CANNOT tell WIS hey, send both packets back to 1.2.3.4, port 5001. it simply would not know which packet went where. so, what really happens, is the router will use different ports. for example, it might send computer 1's request, from 10.10.12.2 port 5001, to WIS, with a return of 1.2.3.4 port 5001, while it might send computer 2's request, from 10.10.12.3 port 5001, to WIS, with a return of 1.2.3.4 port 61234. so, when WIS sends back a response to computer 1, confirming something about their team, it comes in to the router on port 5001, and the router does NAT again, converting 1.2.3.4 port 5001 to 10.10.12.2, port 5001. then, when a packet comes in to computer 2, the router does NAT again, converting 1.2.3.4 port 61234, into 10.10.12.3, port 5001.

does that make sense?



5/2/2013 1:31 AM
by the way... the subnet mask has nothing to do with all this, but just FYI, its the subnet mask that is 255.255.255.0, not the subnet!
5/2/2013 2:24 AM
Posted by mamxet on 5/1/2013 4:22:00 AM (view original):
lets not bring family pets into this discussion
:golfclap:
5/2/2013 6:14 AM
BUT ... the logs of the server do not see the 10.x.x.x address in their logs, they only see the external IP address (the outside IP of the router) that makes a connection in their logs (and the external port number). 

So all 4 of the laptops are all connecting to port 80 on their server from a different port on your router. 

Also, many web browsers now make more than one connection at a time to download pictures at the same time, etc.  So 4 connections on the server from one external IP Address (your router) could be 1 machine making 4 connections, 2 machines making 2 connections each, or 4 machines making one connection each, etc.  It would be very hard for them to distinguish between multiple machines behind one external IP address.
5/2/2013 6:30 AM
Posted by coach_billyg on 4/30/2013 4:16:00 PM (view original):
just FYI hughes, the multiple people in an apartment issue is less of a technical issue than you think. think about it like this - you send a packet, and it HAS to be able to get back to you. ALL the information needed to make that possible, HAS to be in the packet you send. besides, you dont have the same IP as anyone else in the apartment, that isnt allowed. rather, your IP would be something like 192.168.0.2, while my IP (if i lived above you) might be 192.168.0.3. these are private, not externally routable IP addresses. so, you cant send a packet to WIS saying "hey this is from 192.168.0.1", because nobody knows what the hell that means (except on your LAN). so, your router will look and go, ok, i'm 1.2.3.4, ill send this packet to WIS from 1.2.3.4 port 5000, while coach_billyg's packet is sent from 1.2.3.4 port 5001. there are more sophisticated ways these things can be handled but thats the simplest way i know to explain it. generally, traffic is not going to be coming back to different ports for the same user, so its not difficult in the event of multiple IPs, to check the return port, and go hmm, there must be 2 guys there, CBG and hughes.
I am fairly sure (make that 100% sure, I just checked), that web browsers open up many connections at the same time to get pictures, etc.

tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36883          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36886          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36900          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:45367          74.125.227.197:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:46617          74.125.227.203:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36903          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:56468          74.125.227.201:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36892          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36894          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:53447          74.125.227.207:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36891          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36889          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36893          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36905          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:53449          74.125.227.207:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36899          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:53446          74.125.227.207:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:45366          74.125.227.197:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36888          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36885          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36896          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36897          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      
tcp        0      0 192.168.0.10:36901          74.125.227.204:80           ESTABLISHED 12721/firefox      

That is what happened when I made a connection to Google News ... I had multiple connections (23) at the same time.  Each of those connections ALSO were from a different port of my external router to Google News at the same time.  If another computer (PC2) also made a connection to Google News at a similar time, then there would have been 40 connections to them from my external router at the same time.  Google can only tell that my router is sending 40 connections, they can not tell what machines they are coming from inside.  (Unless the machines are using different browsers, etc.)
5/2/2013 11:07 AM
Agree with you gillispie1.   Not really a response to your post to hughesjr, just a observation to how to track people.  I agree with you and hughesjr.   What about the people that generate a team at home and then generate one at work.  Now you have no way of tracking them as long as they only use 1 ID at work and 1 ID at home, but still use the same credit card.  Be honest I never knew there was a 1000 mile rule, but I hate cheaters and would be nice to police this situation.  Actually I think hughesjr, gillispie1, and myself all agree tracking IP adresses is not a very good idea to police things.
5/2/2013 5:33 PM
Posted by terps21234 on 5/2/2013 11:09:00 AM (view original):
Agree with you gillispie1.   Not really a response to your post to hughesjr, just a observation to how to track people.  I agree with you and hughesjr.   What about the people that generate a team at home and then generate one at work.  Now you have no way of tracking them as long as they only use 1 ID at work and 1 ID at home, but still use the same credit card.  Be honest I never knew there was a 1000 mile rule, but I hate cheaters and would be nice to police this situation.  Actually I think hughesjr, gillispie1, and myself all agree tracking IP adresses is not a very good idea to police things.
agreed
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