All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty Beta > Hope you complainers are happy.
6/20/2013 2:02 PM
Throwing very deep 40 times in a game should wear a quarterback completely out. It should increase his chance for shoulder injury. It should wear the wide receivers out and increase their chance of injury. If nothing else this would force the backups into the game more which would also reduce scoring.  All of these penalties should be assessed more against the offensive team because on an 80 yard pass the offense runs 80+ yards and the defense is usually beaten by 40. 
6/20/2013 3:20 PM
It should also wear the defensive backs out, the defensive line and the linebackers out.... no?

I keep hearing on TV announcers talking about how long the defense has been on the field and they must be tired... isn't that 'irl'?

So subs would come in for defense as well? Or would those guys not get fatigued and be able to play the entire game?
6/20/2013 8:55 PM
Posted by kcsundevil on 6/20/2013 10:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by caesari on 6/20/2013 7:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jibe on 6/19/2013 4:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 6/19/2013 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jibe on 6/19/2013 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Players making bad plays from time to time and having bad games from time to time for no reason a coach can control has been a huge disaster of 2.0.

My Florida team was 12-0 and on its way to an NC shot when it played a greatly under matched 5-7 Vanderbilt team. The other coach put a default GP in just so he would lessen his chances of derailing me. The result was the bad game that we have been told must occur to keep everything fair so that everyone has a chance to win.

No this shouldn't be in the game. When you get your talent built up then you should have a shot at beating #1 with proper GPing and putting your players in the right places.

We as coaches have been saddled with this bad play/game long enough which we have had zero control over to offset.

So your opponent tried to throw the game, you knew about it, and you're complaining that your combined efforts to cheat failed? Yeah, how awful.
How ******* stupid are you? I guess your comment shows just how ******* stupid you are.

Where in my post did I say I knew of his default GP before the fact?

I blocked him awhile back.

Anyhow, I have not been playing the beta and I do not have plans to. I'm only playing HD at the moment, and as much as I love the GD community, I won't be picking up a team (except MAYBE Army if I am qualified. Maybe) before the beta ends and the new engine is rolled out. Being on the outside I can take in everyone's opinions without skewing them to my personal feelings.

I've been around for two years- not that long, but I've been loud and active. People know me. Even if I don't know them. I feel like it is important for forum users and the best of the best to try and be constructive and not doom and gloom all the time, for the health of the game.

I'm going to stop before I start rambling.
You're part of the reason I quit GD, caesari, so you can take pride in that.

Jibe, you could have just clarified instead of attacking me, but I see where you're coming from. I saw that you now know about it, and I see you're complaining in a public forum that an attempt to cheat for your benefit didn't work. But it's certainly possible you didn't know about it in advance.

However, it's still silly for you now to be complaining that your opponent's attempt to cheat failed. To clarify, you indicated your opponent tried to throw the game, which if true would be a clear violation of Fair Play. Here's the relevant section, read the fourth bullet.

Collusive transactions

Collusion includes any act that supports bad, deceitful or illegal behavior agreed upon by two or more users or attempted by a single user. Here are a few examples:

  • Discussing the pursuit of a recruit with another coach, including who is pursuing him and money that might have been spent.
  • Sharing Future Stars Scouting (FSS) information between multiple teams
  • Scheduling a non-conference game against an alias team (i.e. team owned by same owner in a different conference and more than 1,000 miles away). Exhibition games are permitted in this situation, however.
  • Any clear throwing of a game (normally indicated by massive lineup changes or settings changes)
  • Attempting to persuade another user to participate in a collusive effort (only the initiator would be at fault unless agreed upon by other user)


Well I decided to click on this post because I figured you'd say something like that. And honestly, I do take pride in that.

I still don't understand what your problem was with me in the first place, but I'm pretty sure it had to do with that Bryant team I took over- and couldn't recruit because of very serious real life issues. I'm sorry that I chose taking care of real life over taking care of a team you built that wasn't even all that impressive, and you decided I was trying to tank. 

Actually, now that I think about it, I am not sorry at all. I AM sorry I clicked on this post. Won't happen again. I promise.
6/21/2013 11:05 AM
Posted by teamville on 6/20/2013 3:20:00 PM (view original):
It should also wear the defensive backs out, the defensive line and the linebackers out.... no?

I keep hearing on TV announcers talking about how long the defense has been on the field and they must be tired... isn't that 'irl'?

So subs would come in for defense as well? Or would those guys not get fatigued and be able to play the entire game?
teamville, you're spot on about the defense getting as tired as the offense, usually more so. The reason for this is the fact that the offense knows the plays they are running and the defense is constantly having to react. reacting is harder on the body and, in turn, causes the okayer to become tired faster...
6/21/2013 11:54 AM
katzphang88   "What I hear you saying Coach Billy Deen - is that regardless of the difference in values between the two players, the lesser player should always have a chance to make up that talent difference just - oh well - just because? So to carry this further, any 500 rated team should be able to knock off a 650 rated team - just because it possibly could happen in real life? And any coach  with an average team should win a NC just because it COULD happen? So no matter how well I recruit and manage my team, there should always be the chance that any other lesser coached team could knock me off just because? Let's just give every team a NC every year and make it so no one wins more than anyone else. If I can't beat someone every game with my better players and better team - why play the game?"

katz, that is not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a player can play above his head at times, though in this game they should be fewer & farther between than in RL. Should this cost you a game? Probably never. Should it cause a coach to win a NT? Absolutely not! I honestly believe we're very close to feeling the same way about the game, or at least closer than you think...
6/21/2013 2:29 PM
coach deen - "katz, that is not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a player can play above his head at times, though in this game they should be fewer & farther between than in RL. Should this cost you a game? Probably never. Should it cause a coach to win a NT? Absolutely not! I honestly believe we're very close to feeling the same way about the game, or at least closer than you think..."

And what exactly, in game all based on numbers and formulas, is the calculation we should use for "playing over one's head"?
6/21/2013 2:45 PM
Posted by coach_deen on 6/21/2013 11:54:00 AM (view original):
katzphang88   "What I hear you saying Coach Billy Deen - is that regardless of the difference in values between the two players, the lesser player should always have a chance to make up that talent difference just - oh well - just because? So to carry this further, any 500 rated team should be able to knock off a 650 rated team - just because it possibly could happen in real life? And any coach  with an average team should win a NC just because it COULD happen? So no matter how well I recruit and manage my team, there should always be the chance that any other lesser coached team could knock me off just because? Let's just give every team a NC every year and make it so no one wins more than anyone else. If I can't beat someone every game with my better players and better team - why play the game?"

katz, that is not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a player can play above his head at times, though in this game they should be fewer & farther between than in RL. Should this cost you a game? Probably never. Should it cause a coach to win a NT? Absolutely not! I honestly believe we're very close to feeling the same way about the game, or at least closer than you think...

My question is, if I have the better team, when do my players play over their head.  I see my team with advantages at every position today currently losing 31-10 at halftime in a game that I simmed 10 times and on average won by 14 and in none of those games did the opposing team score 31 for the entire game.  Yet here we are at the half losing 31-10.  At some point, my stud players need to play above their head as well, not just be expected to play better just because they are better, Correct?

6/21/2013 4:04 PM
Posted by coach_deen on 6/21/2013 11:54:00 AM (view original):
katzphang88   "What I hear you saying Coach Billy Deen - is that regardless of the difference in values between the two players, the lesser player should always have a chance to make up that talent difference just - oh well - just because? So to carry this further, any 500 rated team should be able to knock off a 650 rated team - just because it possibly could happen in real life? And any coach  with an average team should win a NC just because it COULD happen? So no matter how well I recruit and manage my team, there should always be the chance that any other lesser coached team could knock me off just because? Let's just give every team a NC every year and make it so no one wins more than anyone else. If I can't beat someone every game with my better players and better team - why play the game?"

katz, that is not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a player can play above his head at times, though in this game they should be fewer & farther between than in RL. Should this cost you a game? Probably never. Should it cause a coach to win a NT? Absolutely not! I honestly believe we're very close to feeling the same way about the game, or at least closer than you think...
Why should a player play above his head at times?  The players have specific attributes, they should play to them.  
6/21/2013 11:03 PM
because it happens?

i guess you could say it doesn't

when the sim acts like football, when it has reasonable football outcomes, it is correct

the arguing back and forth here is superfluous

because football outcomes are known. there is 150 years of data

make the sim match the game





6/22/2013 7:01 AM
Posted by slid64er on 6/21/2013 4:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_deen on 6/21/2013 11:54:00 AM (view original):
katzphang88   "What I hear you saying Coach Billy Deen - is that regardless of the difference in values between the two players, the lesser player should always have a chance to make up that talent difference just - oh well - just because? So to carry this further, any 500 rated team should be able to knock off a 650 rated team - just because it possibly could happen in real life? And any coach  with an average team should win a NC just because it COULD happen? So no matter how well I recruit and manage my team, there should always be the chance that any other lesser coached team could knock me off just because? Let's just give every team a NC every year and make it so no one wins more than anyone else. If I can't beat someone every game with my better players and better team - why play the game?"

katz, that is not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a player can play above his head at times, though in this game they should be fewer & farther between than in RL. Should this cost you a game? Probably never. Should it cause a coach to win a NT? Absolutely not! I honestly believe we're very close to feeling the same way about the game, or at least closer than you think...
Why should a player play above his head at times?  The players have specific attributes, they should play to them.  
Look, if you've never played football above maybe a JR. High level, I can understand your argument. The truth is players play above and below there talent level at times for a number of reasons. In a game like GD the only way to sim this is to allow a player that has attributes of 50 to play at a 55-60 level maybe 10%-15% of the plays and a 40%-45% 10%-15% of the plays. The other 70%-80% of the plays he plays at his normal 50. I promise you this would mirror real football much more than a 50 player playing at 50 all of the time...
6/22/2013 11:56 AM
Posted by coach_deen on 6/22/2013 7:01:00 AM (view original):
Posted by slid64er on 6/21/2013 4:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_deen on 6/21/2013 11:54:00 AM (view original):
katzphang88   "What I hear you saying Coach Billy Deen - is that regardless of the difference in values between the two players, the lesser player should always have a chance to make up that talent difference just - oh well - just because? So to carry this further, any 500 rated team should be able to knock off a 650 rated team - just because it possibly could happen in real life? And any coach  with an average team should win a NC just because it COULD happen? So no matter how well I recruit and manage my team, there should always be the chance that any other lesser coached team could knock me off just because? Let's just give every team a NC every year and make it so no one wins more than anyone else. If I can't beat someone every game with my better players and better team - why play the game?"

katz, that is not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is that a player can play above his head at times, though in this game they should be fewer & farther between than in RL. Should this cost you a game? Probably never. Should it cause a coach to win a NT? Absolutely not! I honestly believe we're very close to feeling the same way about the game, or at least closer than you think...
Why should a player play above his head at times?  The players have specific attributes, they should play to them.  
Look, if you've never played football above maybe a JR. High level, I can understand your argument. The truth is players play above and below there talent level at times for a number of reasons. In a game like GD the only way to sim this is to allow a player that has attributes of 50 to play at a 55-60 level maybe 10%-15% of the plays and a 40%-45% 10%-15% of the plays. The other 70%-80% of the plays he plays at his normal 50. I promise you this would mirror real football much more than a 50 player playing at 50 all of the time...
In real life they play above and/or below their talent level.  But this is a simulation.  We know their exact talent level.  It is given to us, they should play to it.  If you want your players to play better, recruit better players.

By discounting talent,  you're making the game rock paper scissors.
6/22/2013 8:56 PM
I'll say it one more time. The game some of you are asking for IS NOT football, it's recruiting. If a SIM recruiting game was what we were after I would agree 100% with what you're saying, but it's not. We're looking for a SIM FOOTBALL GAME, and part of football, a big part, is coaching/game planning. The fact that you want to basically remove that from the game, whether you are willing to admit it or not, is saying that you either can't, don't have time or simply don't want to game plan. I'm just about done with beta, and GD, but it's not the engine that's driving me away, it's the coaches that are screaming for a game that is about as far from football as it could possibly be.......
6/22/2013 9:40 PM (edited)
Posted by coach_deen on 6/22/2013 8:56:00 PM (view original):
I'll say it one more time. The game some of you are asking for IS NOT football, it's recruiting. If a SIM recruiting game was what we were after I would agree 100% with what you're saying, but it's not. We're looking for a SIM FOOTBALL GAME, and part of football, a big part, is coaching/game planning. The fact that you want to basically remove that from the game, whether you are willing to admit it or not, is saying that you either can't, don't have time or simply don't want to game plan. I'm just about done with beta, and GD, but it's not the engine that's driving me away, it's the coaches that are screaming for a game that is about as far from football as it could possibly be.......
I have never said to remove gameplanning.  In fact, it is vital when two teams are relatively evenly matched talent wise.  Gameplanning shouldn't matter when the teams are not matched up talent wise.  Just like Alabama will beat Colorado State this year no matter what either team does gameplan wise.

The fact that you don't want talent to matter, whether you are willing to admit it or not, is saying that you either can't or don't have the time or simply don't know how to recruit.  You want to win with inferior talent and assume that those with superior talent don't know the ins and outs of gameplanning.  You're wrong.  Several coaches have proven that they can recruit and gameplan at an elite level over several years of realtime GD participation.  Just because you can't doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
6/22/2013 10:39 PM
Posted by coach_deen on 6/22/2013 8:56:00 PM (view original):
I'll say it one more time. The game some of you are asking for IS NOT football, it's recruiting. If a SIM recruiting game was what we were after I would agree 100% with what you're saying, but it's not. We're looking for a SIM FOOTBALL GAME, and part of football, a big part, is coaching/game planning. The fact that you want to basically remove that from the game, whether you are willing to admit it or not, is saying that you either can't, don't have time or simply don't want to game plan. I'm just about done with beta, and GD, but it's not the engine that's driving me away, it's the coaches that are screaming for a game that is about as far from football as it could possibly be.......
Coach_deen, can you answer me when my stud players are going to play over their head.  This shouldn't be limited to the underdog teams, correct?  My D1AA teams have both been beaten and beaten heavily by teams I have advantages at every position.  Shouldn't my players at some point play above their heads as well?
6/23/2013 1:14 AM (edited)
coach deen - "Look, if you've never played football above maybe a JR. High level, I can understand your argument. The truth is players play above and below there talent level at times for a number of reasons. In a game like GD the only way to sim this is to allow a player that has attributes of 50 to play at a 55-60 level maybe 10%-15% of the plays and a 40%-45% 10%-15% of the plays. The other 70%-80% of the plays he plays at his normal 50. I promise you this would mirror real football much more than a 50 player playing at 50 all of the time..."

So the "inferior team" should play over their head 10% to 15% of the time and slump 10% to 15% of the time. So probabilities in a game with a (50 to 60 ratings difference) would be that 2.5% of the plays would have the inferior team playing above the superior team, 12.5% with even play, 10% with the superior team having less than 10% advantage and 75% with the superior team being superior by > 10%. I could live with that. But at present, as dewagne brings up - the superior team should produce above average results vs the lower team 75% of the time. But we do not see that at present. We see inferior teams always being able to compete with better teams, and better teams having to play and out plan the game engine rather than being able to game plan the opposition. So in a 50 play game, the inferior team should post a Rudy moment 1 - 2 times, play even or average 12 - 13 plays and get run over for 35 others. The closer the values, the more overlap
of the ratings skew, but the greater the ratings difference even with one team "playing over their heads" , that 2.5% of superior play by the inferior team will disappear. Also, for what you counter with regarding game planning, if the superior team game plans better those differences would increase further and the inferior team would be left squirming.

So why muddy the water with artificial mental moments for one team or the other. Recruiting for a player advantage will always be more important if this game relies on player ratings to produce results. We could always go to a generic player rating profile for each position and every coach starts with recruiting players with the exact same values and then turn the game into a game planning/practice planning competition. With the way the randomness of the engine is now having to either sell out for the pass or run, we would still be arguing many points regarding why my version of the WB can't succeed against your version of the 4-4 or other blah blah blah.

Straight up, ratings matter, better ratings make better outcomes, big rating differences make bigger outcomes. No fuzziness, no feel goodies, no Rudy moments.
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