All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty Beta > When is talent going to matter again?
6/22/2013 11:31 AM
Posted by coach_deen on 6/22/2013 6:51:00 AM (view original):
It honestly feels like we're after two different games. Some want a SIM college football game, others want a SIM college football recruiting game. The problem is GD is designed to be both...at the same time, and it's going to be very hard if not impossible to please both sides unless we all agree that both recruiting and game planning should both matter. If I out recruit you, we play against each other, and you are a much better coach as far as putting a game plan together, should either one of us win every time we play? I just don't see the logic in that. If it were this way, why play the game? Why not just have one off season after another and the team with the best recruiting class is named National Champ?

Well, your point is valid, but I think the talent issue is real.  The games are played to flush out the bad teams and organize the rankings.  A team with a recruiting class of 70 shouldn't hang with one from the top 10.  This is true in real life (most times anyway) too.  Games are played to see who is better within certain talent ranges.  Top 10 teams (or even 20) playing each other will come down to game planning where the talent differential is not overwhelming.  This is true for average teams and bad teams playing each other as well.  Huge advantages should be difficult if not impossible to overcome though.  I think the main complaint right now is that it isn't.  

I have to say I don't neccesarily see this complaint clearly.  The same teams seem to be winning in Beta regardless of updates.  Is it because of talent?  Gameplanning?  not sure.  I think talent does matter right now, but the mechanics in certain situations are flawed.  Running seemed ok untill recently.  Now offesnive line advantages account for little actual advantage (I have personally experienced the +8-10 point advantage for my offensive line over opponents' defensive line equaling 2 yards a carry on a game).  Passing went from being difficult to ridiculously easy, and once again, talent or ratings don't seem to make a huge difference.   The WR has an advantage over the def back regardless of ratings when throwing deep.   It seems like the talent complaint has some validity if the game is to work properly.  Right now game planning involves learning about certain weaknesses in the engine.  It doesn't show any type of inherent knowledge of actual football mechanics which if the game was working properly, should be rewarded (so in essense, I agree with you but I think the basic talent advantages need to be addressed first before tweaking how strategy impacts that).    

I am not sure what the answer is right now.  I don't think Beta is a success at this point.  it seems to be getting progressively worse, and coaches are certainly frustrated and/or giving up.  I do like all the settings, depth chart and game planning options and think that is a big improvement.  I think the engine is no better and possibly worse than past versions though.  The randomness is still present along with obvious mechanical flaws in design and utility.  It is BEta, so we can't complain too much.  If things don't improve though, is this worth paying for?        
6/22/2013 12:00 PM
In council, 10 points in cores was suggested and supported as being the point where talent overwhelms everything else.  IMO, this is reasonable.  

Unfortunately, the engine is not set up to be able to calibrate the game to make that happen without significant trial and error adjustments.
6/22/2013 1:49 PM
samson75 - "I have to say I don't neccesarily see this complaint clearly.  The same teams seem to be winning in Beta regardless of updates.  Is it because of talent?  Gameplanning?  not sure.  I think talent does matter right now, but the mechanics in certain situations are flawed.  Running seemed ok untill recently.  Now offesnive line advantages account for little actual advantage (I have personally experienced the +8-10 point advantage for my offensive line over opponents' defensive line equaling 2 yards a carry on a game).  Passing went from being difficult to ridiculously easy, and once again, talent or ratings don't seem to make a huge difference.   The WR has an advantage over the def back regardless of ratings when throwing deep.   It seems like the talent complaint has some validity if the game is to work properly.  Right now game planning involves learning about certain weaknesses in the engine.  It doesn't show any type of inherent knowledge of actual football mechanics which if the game was working properly, should be rewarded (so in essense, I agree with you but I think the basic talent advantages need to be addressed first before tweaking how strategy impacts that). "

I think this hit the nail dead on. Good advantages to OL produce low ave YPC, similar to teams that don't have an advantage. Running is weaker now. Throwing at any depth favors the WR regardless of the match-ups at QB, WR, DB. To win regularly you have to take advantage of weaknesses in the engine, as player match-ups are still unpredictable at any percentage. Game planning in such an application is just taking another dimension to the error. In the first two seasons we were working on game planning and there were many posts regarding how the WB worked against the SG or 5-2. Changes were made, but it seemed more on the gameplanning/formation side and not on the player rating side. We should be able to see equal rated teams/players playing formations we would expect to cancel out (WB vs 4-4, pro vs 4-3, trips vs nickel) and get the player match-up side to give consistent equal outcomes, not wide swings in scores. Then play unmatched formations to see the same consistent scoring favoring the expected formation mis-matches to occur. Then go back to the first scenario and play with player ratings for every position to see at what ratings advantage would produce a real player advantage in the context of the engine.

I felt that we started the beta well, but it began to get to fast paced and ran away from our ability to follow the changes and Norbert's ability to adequately understand the implications of what he was imposing on the engine (JConte redux). Sorry to say, for this game to work we need to go back to step one.
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All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty Beta > When is talent going to matter again?

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