All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > 1000 mile rule now driving distance?
8/6/2013 4:56 PM
Or why not just have people disclose it, and then IF they use the two teams improperly, THEN simply remove them from the higher-ranked school? Why just assume that anyone with two teams in an arbitrary radius is going to use them dishonestly?
8/6/2013 5:15 PM
I'm not making the argument one way or another on that question, but given that the decision has been made to forbid it, the swap to another world would seem to be a way to defuse the concerns, get rid of troublesome situations etc.
8/6/2013 9:14 PM
Would a happy medium be disclosing what states a school has fss'd? Seems like that would tell a lot
8/6/2013 9:27 PM
Posted by wildcat98 on 8/6/2013 4:56:00 PM (view original):
Or why not just have people disclose it, and then IF they use the two teams improperly, THEN simply remove them from the higher-ranked school? Why just assume that anyone with two teams in an arbitrary radius is going to use them dishonestly?
Too many look at this rule as being designed to prevent cheating.  It isn't.  The rule is clearly designed to give CS an administratively simple method of protecting honest coaches with multiple accounts from being accused of cheating.  I can only guess that, had CS known how those with multiple accounts would react to it, then they would have either done nothing or just said that no one is permitted 2 teams in the same world under separate IDs.

The biggest problem, as with most rules, is that people get hung up on the letter of the rule, rather than the spirit (especially those enforcing the rule).  Certainly, schools that are 950 crow's flight miles apart should be allowed. 1000 miles is an arbitrary number.   IMO, anything over 720 is sufficient (no recruits less than 360 miles from both schools).   Tracking and posting those exceptions is an administrative pain in the *** - and the rule was designed to avoid a pain in that region!
8/7/2013 1:50 AM
I still think a simple required disclosure, combined with severe punishment if someone is caught cheating, is the cleanest, best way to address it.
8/7/2013 10:04 AM
Posted by fd343ny on 8/6/2013 4:47:00 PM (view original):
I'm wondering whether WIS could think outside the box a little here.  What if ...those magic words....WIS said that if you have two teams in a world within 1000 miles you MUST disclose it but that they will override the jobs logic to let you get the same school in a DIFFERENT world.  If the same school is not available, they will give you a choice of various comparable schools in another world. 

If you have two teams within 1000 miles (one person or someone with substantial control - like a son who often asks dad to run the team or vice versa) and you dont disclose it and fix it, then upon discovery you will lose the higher ranked team.

The key to me would be to swap folks into a different world to let them continue at the given school - or perhaps a school that is about as attractive.
i tried to talk seble into it when this happened to me, but he said they cant transfer resumes to different worlds. i dont understand why not, but i can imagine the stats and stuff could get a little funky. a complete transfer of a user's state to another world doesnt make sense though, as the worlds ran different lengths of times, and all that. i would think you could fairly easily just move the coach, his resume, and maybe even his team, but leave everything else. but that might break a bunch of links or something, who knows, its hard to estimate how hard a change like that might be, even though it doesnt sound that bad to me personally.

i agree though, that is basically the ideal solution. 
8/7/2013 10:42 AM
1) I like the 1000 mi rule. Any legit way to get more coaches playing more teams.

2) Wildcat, since I have been in HD (approximately 50 seasons) there has been at least 2 threads on which the coaches with multiple ID's have completely disclosed their ID's as you suggest. Perhaps a thread like that should be kept alive so every time someone goes multiple they can be added to the list. If  caught not on the list discipline them.

3) I am a believer in if a rule is changed, those who were in complete compliance with the old rule should be grandfathered in any situation. Gillispie is a great coach because he has great passion for the game and is a great student of the game not because he had multiple teams. In fact if you study his history you probably would conclude that he would have quit a long time ago if he thought he had to cheat to win. He was ALWAYS in compliance with the rules of the game as they stood at the time.
8/7/2013 10:50 AM
The 1000 mile rule doesn't really get users to play more.
8/7/2013 11:16 AM
I would love for someone to explain to me why being <1000 miles has any bearing at all on cheating. 
8/7/2013 11:24 AM (edited)
Posted by coachvegas44 on 8/7/2013 10:42:00 AM (view original):
1) I like the 1000 mi rule. Any legit way to get more coaches playing more teams.

2) Wildcat, since I have been in HD (approximately 50 seasons) there has been at least 2 threads on which the coaches with multiple ID's have completely disclosed their ID's as you suggest. Perhaps a thread like that should be kept alive so every time someone goes multiple they can be added to the list. If  caught not on the list discipline them.

3) I am a believer in if a rule is changed, those who were in complete compliance with the old rule should be grandfathered in any situation. Gillispie is a great coach because he has great passion for the game and is a great student of the game not because he had multiple teams. In fact if you study his history you probably would conclude that he would have quit a long time ago if he thought he had to cheat to win. He was ALWAYS in compliance with the rules of the game as they stood at the time.
appreciate the vote of confidence!

the ironic part to me is how when i did start in d1 tark, a lot of people thought i might be cheating out at colorado, in the collusion during recruiting sort of way - because of a combination of how new i was, and also because there was 1 season where randomly utah and colorado had this insane pool of recruits, which i signed almost all of. it sort of balanced my first colorado title actually, where i had a borderline top 25 team by talent, just coached them well. the second team was insanely talented and i had no idea what i was doing in recruiting still, which was pretty obvious, but when you have a BCS school and just won a title, competing with a passive MWC to win most of those star local recruits isn't really an impressive feat. ive always considered my first colorado title my most impressive title and my second, the least impressive one. however, from afar, i can totally see how people would be suspicious - usually when you get to d1 you just fail completely. and i pretty much did, from a recruiting standpoint, i just could coach well, and that wasn't really any harder than coaching in d2 or d3.

but anyway when i moved to texas a&m and immediately did even better, it was clear it wasnt because i had some secret network of colluders that i built up overnight at colorado. at least a few coaches told me after the fact about their suspicions and sites texas a&m as the reason they no longer suspected. also doing well in d2 at the same time helped i think. but anyway, the thing that is ironic is that even though a pretty large group of guys apparently had their doubts about how i was winning - NOBODY brought up anything about me having multiple teams in tark and maybe that somehow helped. not one person ever. it was the furthest thing from people's minds then, even when impropriety was possibly at hand - it was always about sitemailing in d1. since then, with my interest cut back and my teams not even close to on the same level, at various points in time, people have complained about multiple teams and how i must need multiple teams to win. its actually went on for years now, with a few limited individuals... although none of them seemed to care about having d2 or d3 teams within 1000 miles, only that i had 2 d1 teams.

just strange to me... now that my teams accomplishments are ordinary and almost beyond question, given the contrast to earlier teams' performance... for years now people have complained about multiple teams, with respect to me, personally. it makes me feel like people just like to complain... its just so ridiculous! with 100 times less reason to be suspected, ive gotten a bunch of comments over the years... limited mostly to a couple individuals but still... as opposed to exactly 0 when i was new, unknown, and there were decent reasons to suspect something might be amiss. doesn't seem like logic is a factor in 90% of this...
8/7/2013 11:44 AM
Posted by killbatman on 8/7/2013 11:16:00 AM (view original):
I would love for someone to explain to me why being <1000 miles has any bearing at all on cheating. 
It isn't solely about cheating, but of gaining an unfair advantage given the cost structure of recruiting effort and FSS.  That is the case even were the individual controlling both accounts intending to not cheat.

For instance, if I had NCCU & Duke in the same world (both in Durham, NC for those unfamiliar), would you really believe that I would be spending money on FSS on both accounts on the same states?  Even if I was super-honest and did FSS SC, VA & NC under both accounts, other coaches would have no good reason to believe that I did and would, therefore, need to assume that I would have extra funds to spend under one account or the other.   Disclosure, at that distance, wouldn't resolve the other coaches' concerns.

No question that someone could have NCCU & Hawaii and use the Hawaii account to FSS for NCCU, but that would be to play Hawaii in a sub-optimal fashion (i.e. cheating).  And, no question, there are a myriad of other ways to cheat.  The issue is that there is no way to avoid the appearance of cheating if the schools are too close.  

If you want a defense of the 1000 mile rule, then I would say it is a rough estimate of the 360 mile cost increase for both schools plus a wag at the median width of a state (280 miles).  That is, at 1000 miles, an honest player scouting & recruiting optimally for both schools would have no reason to FSS the same states under both IDs.   So, other coaches would not feel the need to adjust their behavior based on the multiple ID coaches' perceived advantage.  
8/7/2013 1:08 PM
i think rogelio has stated the one solid defense of the 1000 mile rule... if people are worried about cheating, if you have 2 schools far apart, you at least have to hurt one to help the other. i guess part B of that, to me, is its easier to catch someone in california who always signs guys from NC when that coach has a school in NC, than when both teams are in NC - how would you know?

my issue is really the presumption that people are cheating... but its my personal opinion that most coaches dont and that should not be the primary concern. i think some guys do, but i do think cheating is probably skewed more towards less successful coaches. for example, colonels openly admits to cheating on a couple occasions by sharing FSS data - but really, who cares? its a lot worse if someone winning a bunch of titles is cheating. and rogelio - to answer that question - i would really believe that you would scout the same states on both. i guess its just a manner of opinion. i grew up in NJ living under the assumption that anyone who thinks they might be able to screw you over, will. but i also think they have to have personal gain... and in a game where there is basically nothing at stake, i just tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. if we're playing poker where the winner makes a couple hundred bucks, i wouldnt operate under the same assumption... 

as crazy at it sounds, i actually think colonels made a pretty legitimate point. its such a pain in the *** to go find all the guys you are interested in under one team, on the other. i know some coaches only look at a handful of players but if thats all you are transferring to the other team, you are definitely playing sub-optimally already. i used to use yatzrs tool all the time so i could sort players by a formula, and before that, a tool i wrote myself... but the pain was getting guys back in your list. for a while i had accounts with the "premium" feature to do actions from the tool, and some without - which lets you add guys to watch list. eventually i flat out refused to use the tool for anything unless i had that feature - its just such a ***** to find the guys you are interested in a second time with WIS's search functions. its even more work than just recruiting with the standard interface. so my viewpoint has sort of shifted from, i dont think most coaches would cheat at a strategy game (how do you take pride in winning that way? - and besides, there are WAY bigger ways to cheat than this) - and even if they are, i doubt its the guys who are winning the big games where it REALLY matters. i realize it still sucks for the guy who misses the NT bid because someone cheated and got one when they wouldnt, but its not nearly as bad as if you lose a title over it, or miss a final 4 or whatever the cusp of your accomplishments are. and im sure a bunch of guys get frustrated and resort to cheating for a little while (at least), but again, i think most of those coaches struggle with and without the FSS "advantage". anyway, now my opinion has shifted to, i still doubt most people are abusing two teams for FSS, but if they are, i really dont care - if they are willing to suffer through looking up those players on the other team to get them on their list and all the inefficiencies that go along with it - they are probably going to play pretty sub optimally due to the difficulty, and so let them suffer through it. i really could not care less. anyone bent on cheating has way better options than that!
8/7/2013 2:52 PM
i think rogelio has stated the one solid defense of the 1000 mile rule... if people are worried about cheating, if you have 2 schools far apart, you at least have to hurt one to help the other.
See I don't really buy that.  I recruit nationally all the time and don't just stick to the 360 mile radius.  You make it sound like it actually hurts the team to FSS a state across the country.  Since FSS doesn't charge based on distance, I would completely disagree with a sweeping statement like that.  If we're talking about blatant cheating like attacking the same coach with both teams, which of course would be more costly from distance, then I would ask why are we letting an obvious case like that drive the rule?  We can report and stop that behavior either way.

The only defense I read of the 1000 mile rule is that it makes it *appear* less like someone is cheating.  I don't find that to be very compelling personally.  Sounds like we made this drastic rule change primarily to keep a few complainers from getting their panties in a wad over "assumed cheaters." 

I do appreciate the response rogelio.
8/7/2013 7:04 PM
Not that I'm ashamed of what I did or anything, but when I had 2 teams, they were 1000 miles apart, and it was only for 1 season.  If you have 2 teams in the same world and don't share FSS between the 2, you're an idiot...just saying.
8/7/2013 7:06 PM
Posted by colonels19 on 8/7/2013 7:04:00 PM (view original):
Not that I'm ashamed of what I did or anything, but when I had 2 teams, they were 1000 miles apart, and it was only for 1 season.  If you have 2 teams in the same world and don't share FSS between the 2, you're an idiot...just saying.
Umm... isn't that just blatant cheating?
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