All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Hall of Fame weekend
7/30/2013 1:58 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2013 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Where does Kenny Lofton rank with the other HOF CFers in terms of gWAR and qWAR27?

bad_luck?

7/30/2013 2:06 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/30/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):
Jaworski.  Haha.

Common sense does have to come into account.  JAWS ignores more than half of Lofton's career, parts of which were kinda ******.  Does it take into effect dWAR?  Because I do have issues with that stat.  Beltran is below Lofton? Seriously?
JAWS combines WAR7 and WAR. It does include defense and a lot of Lofton's value comes from his defense. I agree that there are issues with dWAR. I wouldn't have voted for Lofton in 2013 because there are 10 players I'd put on the ballot ahead of him. But I don't think he falls into the Bernie Williams/Steve Finley near automatic "no vote" category.
FWIW, I asked Jaffe on twitter and he responded.  See below.  He also said in his next tweet "all of which is to say: borderline HOF, but not sure I'd game the balloting by voting for him over a more unanimous candidate." Also, sure, follow me on twitter. Although I rarely have anything interesting to say. So don't.

twitter.com/jay_jaffe/status/362269655349469184
7/30/2013 2:34 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 1:26:00 PM (view original):
For ****'s sake.    Butler OPS+ 110, Lofton 107.

The difference between the two is negibile regardless of what Ron Jaworski claims.
OPS+ ignores 67% of the game. ****** stat.
Says the dude who touts FIP.

7/30/2013 2:37 PM
When have I ever touted FIP???

OPS only looks at offense. It ignores defense and base running, two things Lofton was very good at. Like Jaffe said, Lofton is borderline.
7/30/2013 2:44 PM
Butler stole a lot of bases, too.   Lofton was better defensively.     Again, neglibile difference between the two.
7/30/2013 2:58 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2013 2:44:00 PM (view original):
Butler stole a lot of bases, too.   Lofton was better defensively.     Again, neglibile difference between the two.
Nope. The difference between Williams and Butler was negligible. The difference between Lofton and Butler was huge. But I don't know why I'm arguing about baseball with you. You're the guy that thought Bernie Williams and Edgar Martinez "were comparable offensive players."
7/30/2013 2:59 PM
Lofton's dWAR, UZR etc numbers are off the charts up until his early-mid 30s.  That's where a lot of this comes from. 
7/30/2013 3:00 PM
I will admit, Lofton does rate favorably to some of the other HOF CFers with his QbiD9+27e numbers during his prime H34zq seasons.  So there's that.
7/30/2013 3:03 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/30/2013 2:59:00 PM (view original):
Lofton's dWAR, UZR etc numbers are off the charts up until his early-mid 30s.  That's where a lot of this comes from. 
Yeah, a lot of his value comes from his glove. How reliable those stats are, I don't know. UZR is better than total zone but we only have UZR after 2002.
7/30/2013 3:08 PM
In 93, Lofton had a WAR of 7.  Contributed to 7 more wins than the replacement player, despite his barely over .800 OPS and 1 home run that year.  Mostly on baserunning and defense.  And this is where I have my issues with WAR.  IMO, some of the data on this stuff is iffy and hard to quantify, and yet we do that and claim that Lofton is this and this guy is that.

That said, look at some of the CFers in the mid 90s and compare them to Lofton.  Lofton made a lot of allstar teams in the mid-late 90s for a reason.
7/30/2013 3:49 PM
Bernie Williams made a lot of A/S games in the late 90's/early 00s for a reason too. 

Still doesn't make him a HOFer.
7/30/2013 4:29 PM
Yup.  For different reasons they made all-star teams, but yes.  Few CFers in that time hit like Bernie.
7/30/2013 5:08 PM
IF BERNIE WILLIAMS IS IN TEXAS, HE DOESNT MAKE HALF THOSE A.S. TEAMS
7/30/2013 7:57 PM
RACIST!!!!
7/30/2013 8:17 PM (edited)
Posted by bad_luck on 7/30/2013 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/30/2013 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Mantle.

Mays.

DiMaggio.

And Kenny ******* Lofton.

LOL.
By JAWS they rank:
Mays - HOF
Cobb - HOF
Speaker - HOF
Mantle - HOF
Griffey (not eligible yet)
DiMaggio - HOF
Snider - HOF
Lofton (off ballot)
Beltran (active)
Andruw Jones (not eligible yet)
Ashburn - HOF
Dawson - HOF
Hamilton - HOF
A handful of non-HOF's
Doby - HOF
Puckett - HOF
Lynn
Murphy
Bernie Williams
Carey - HOF
Averill - HOF
Roush - HOF
Combs - HOF
Wilson - HOF
Duffy - HOF

Maybe Lofton doesn't belong. Maybe he does. He isn't a Mays/Cobb level talent, which is OK, because that isn't the standard for inclusion. We shouldn't dismiss his case just because he doesn't feel like a hall of famer.
Quite a list.
Shows how underrated Speaker was
And how Griffey is the best center fielder most of us have seen

After Snider, I'm not arguing for any of those guys in the hall save for Hamilton
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