All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Andy Pettitte retiring and HOF
9/20/2013 2:33 PM
Glavine pitched a lot more than Mussina. If you take Glavine's career over his first 3500+ IP, it looks a lot like Mussina's, except with a higher peak.

250 W
3.43 ERA
121 ERA+

So if they had pitched the same amount of innings, they'd be very close, a slight edge overall to Mussina, but Glavine wins for career peak with 2 CYAs.

But then Glavine pitched another 885 IP, won 54 more games with a 3.96 ERA and a 107 ERA+.

That much more well above average pitching pushes Glavine way ahead of Mussina.

9/20/2013 2:59 PM (edited)
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/20/2013 2:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/20/2013 1:20:00 PM (view original):
83 WAR
123 ERA+
3.68 ERA
1.192 WHIP
2813 K
3562 IP

81 WAR
118 ERA+
3.54 ERA
1.314 WHIP
2600 K
4400 IP

One of these guys is Glavine and the other is Mussina.
A few things - 

1) While Glavine is a compiler, he also was a dominant pitcher for a decent amount of years.  Mussina was great, but was he ever dominant? Glavine was considered one of the best pitchers in baseball for several years, but did anyone really look at Mussina in that way?  5 All-Star Games for Moose, 10 for Glavine, and 2 Cy Youngs.

2) I know wins are largely meaningless, but 300 wins is a big deal.

3) Pitcher WAR is calculated mostly using FIP, right?  I'm passing on it as an important stat in this argument.


1) I would say Mussina was just as dominant as Glavine. Their peaks were very similar.

Mussina's four best years by ERA+ were 164, 157, 145, 143.
Glavine's were 168, 153, 147, 141.

By WAR, Mussina's best 4 were 8.2, 7.1, 6.6, 6.1.
Glavine: 8.5, 6.1, 5.8, 5.5 

Glavine won more games...but well, you know, pitcher wins. I'd argue that the Cy Young awards were based primarily on those wins also.

2) If they're meaningless, then the 35 win difference (and the 50 loss difference) should also be meaningless.

3) BR WAR is not calculated with FIP. (EDIT: Fangraphs uses FIP for its WAR calculation. If you use Fangraph's WAR, the difference between the two grows large - 82 to 64 in favor of Mussina)

I think those two are very close in overall value. If you think Glavine is a sure thing Hall of Famer, Mussina should be in too. Glavine's biggest advantage is not his wins, it's the additional 850 innings he was able to throw.
9/20/2013 3:17 PM
Yea, I generally go by fangraphs on most things, I figured you were too.

Their peaks are similar, and one of them compiled 300 wins.  So...I'll definitely take the guy with 300 wins.  It's quite an accomplishment to pitch that long and be that successful.  And while a lot of "winning games" has to do with playing on very good teams, you need to be a great pitcher to reach that milestone, and he should be rewarded for that.

Glavine was a different pitcher than most.  He lived just off the plate, and made you swing at pitches that weren't easy to hit hard.  He kept you uncomfortable at the plate without ridiculous stuff or a 98 MPH fastball.  His FIP and xFIP were always off from his ERA for this reason.

9/20/2013 3:17 PM
"WAR, ************!!!!"

Here we go again.
9/20/2013 3:20 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 9/20/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):
"WAR, ************!!!!"

Here we go again.
Any opinion on Pettitte? I was actually looking for a Yankee fan opinion.
9/20/2013 3:27 PM
Very good pitcher.  Not a HOFer.

Granted, he played on a series of good teams for pretty much his entire career.  But he never had a losing record.  Not many pitchers can say that after 18 seasons.
9/20/2013 3:29 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 9/20/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):
"WAR, ************!!!!"

Here we go again.
Is that what I said? Or have you still not learned to read?
9/20/2013 3:31 PM
They why are you posting their WAR (************!!!) numbers?
9/20/2013 3:35 PM
Along with 5 other stats for each pitcher. Nothing wrong with including WAR in the overall evaluation, is there?
9/20/2013 4:28 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/20/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):
Yea, I generally go by fangraphs on most things, I figured you were too.

Their peaks are similar, and one of them compiled 300 wins.  So...I'll definitely take the guy with 300 wins.  It's quite an accomplishment to pitch that long and be that successful.  And while a lot of "winning games" has to do with playing on very good teams, you need to be a great pitcher to reach that milestone, and he should be rewarded for that.

Glavine was a different pitcher than most.  He lived just off the plate, and made you swing at pitches that weren't easy to hit hard.  He kept you uncomfortable at the plate without ridiculous stuff or a 98 MPH fastball.  His FIP and xFIP were always off from his ERA for this reason.

Getting 300 wins is an accomplishment. But the difference between a 300 game winner and a 270 game winner is negligible.
9/20/2013 4:30 PM
Posted by rsp777 on 9/20/2013 1:57:00 PM (view original):
It's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of PRETTY GOOD. No WAY does Pettite even deserve a mention.
Yeah, this thread is pretty stupid.    His case is as strong as Bernie's and Tim Raines'.   No thank you.
9/20/2013 4:32 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 9/20/2013 4:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/20/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):
Yea, I generally go by fangraphs on most things, I figured you were too.

Their peaks are similar, and one of them compiled 300 wins.  So...I'll definitely take the guy with 300 wins.  It's quite an accomplishment to pitch that long and be that successful.  And while a lot of "winning games" has to do with playing on very good teams, you need to be a great pitcher to reach that milestone, and he should be rewarded for that.

Glavine was a different pitcher than most.  He lived just off the plate, and made you swing at pitches that weren't easy to hit hard.  He kept you uncomfortable at the plate without ridiculous stuff or a 98 MPH fastball.  His FIP and xFIP were always off from his ERA for this reason.

Getting 300 wins is an accomplishment. But the difference between a 300 game winner and a 270 game winner is negligible.
Well, it's about 30 games.    Or, another way of putting it would be "2 seasons worth of wins".
9/20/2013 4:34 PM
Tim Raines deserves it, whether you see it or not.  He's not even close to Bernie in HOF-worthiness.

A lot of people seem to be pushing for the HOF for Pettitte.  I was trying to understand the reasoning (and then likely make fun of it).  Maybe you guys are smarter than I realized....
9/20/2013 4:35 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 9/20/2013 4:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/20/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):
Yea, I generally go by fangraphs on most things, I figured you were too.

Their peaks are similar, and one of them compiled 300 wins.  So...I'll definitely take the guy with 300 wins.  It's quite an accomplishment to pitch that long and be that successful.  And while a lot of "winning games" has to do with playing on very good teams, you need to be a great pitcher to reach that milestone, and he should be rewarded for that.

Glavine was a different pitcher than most.  He lived just off the plate, and made you swing at pitches that weren't easy to hit hard.  He kept you uncomfortable at the plate without ridiculous stuff or a 98 MPH fastball.  His FIP and xFIP were always off from his ERA for this reason.

Getting 300 wins is an accomplishment. But the difference between a 300 game winner and a 270 game winner is negligible.
Is getting 270 wins an accomplishment? 
9/20/2013 4:38 PM
There's something to be said about reaching a major milestone.  300 wins is a huge one.
of 5
All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Andy Pettitte retiring and HOF

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.