All Forums > Gridiron Dynasty Football > Gridiron Dynasty > Oriole - Question on Fatigue and DB Attributes
11/1/2013 10:37 AM
Oriole,

Have you considered the effects of fatigue - or perhaps the non-effects - when it comes to the way play results are occurring.  The reason I ask, I vaguely recall norbert mentioning that fatigue affected only the "physical" stats -- ATH, SPD, STR, HND -- but not "skill" stats like BLK, TKL, GI, TECH.

If this is still the case, it would have dramatic effect on the passing game as the game wore on, since there is much more emphasis on the "skill" stats in passing (pass blocking, passing, coverage, routes).

Also, I am curious about the heavy reliance on STR/TKL for DB ratings used in position role formulas. 

 
11/1/2013 11:56 AM
I'll be investigating the effects of fatigue over the next the next few days as well, but I can say that fatigue certainly does have an effect on Blocking, Tackling, GI, and Technique. Perhaps the influence of fatigue is too low, but it certainly has an effect. I'm trying to remember when this was introduced. When I pulled out ratings into a separate rating distribution file I added fatigue to pretty much every calculation that uses ratings. Now ratings and fatigue are combined most times that ratings are referenced they are calculated with fatigue. 

In my investigation in fatigue, I plan on looking at a couple of different things.
1. What is the influence on fatigue on a particular play.
2. What are the average values of fatigue across the game. 

As for DB, Redhawk and I will revisit these once again, and you are correct, Str/Tkl is too high in DB, the other factors (GI, ATH, SPEED) are certainly the most valuable. STR and TKL and HANDS all play significant roles, but in far fewer situations (after catches and for interceptions).  Thanks for the heads up. I'll adjust these now and I'll see if I can write a script that actually tests the value of each attribute as it is seen in a play. 



 
11/1/2013 12:00 PM
Posted by oriole_fan on 11/1/2013 11:56:00 AM (view original):
I'll be investigating the effects of fatigue over the next the next few days as well, but I can say that fatigue certainly does have an effect on Blocking, Tackling, GI, and Technique. Perhaps the influence of fatigue is too low, but it certainly has an effect. I'm trying to remember when this was introduced. When I pulled out ratings into a separate rating distribution file I added fatigue to pretty much every calculation that uses ratings. Now ratings and fatigue are combined most times that ratings are referenced they are calculated with fatigue. 

In my investigation in fatigue, I plan on looking at a couple of different things.
1. What is the influence on fatigue on a particular play.
2. What are the average values of fatigue across the game. 

As for DB, Redhawk and I will revisit these once again, and you are correct, Str/Tkl is too high in DB, the other factors (GI, ATH, SPEED) are certainly the most valuable. STR and TKL and HANDS all play significant roles, but in far fewer situations (after catches and for interceptions).  Thanks for the heads up. I'll adjust these now and I'll see if I can write a script that actually tests the value of each attribute as it is seen in a play. 



 
oriole - can you please check on fatigue specific to QBs?  I believe norbert ratcheted up the fatigue with QBs, but not anyone else.  I would like to see fatigue and it's effects be universal and not be different for each position.
11/1/2013 12:37 PM
Posted by slid64er on 11/1/2013 12:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by oriole_fan on 11/1/2013 11:56:00 AM (view original):
I'll be investigating the effects of fatigue over the next the next few days as well, but I can say that fatigue certainly does have an effect on Blocking, Tackling, GI, and Technique. Perhaps the influence of fatigue is too low, but it certainly has an effect. I'm trying to remember when this was introduced. When I pulled out ratings into a separate rating distribution file I added fatigue to pretty much every calculation that uses ratings. Now ratings and fatigue are combined most times that ratings are referenced they are calculated with fatigue. 

In my investigation in fatigue, I plan on looking at a couple of different things.
1. What is the influence on fatigue on a particular play.
2. What are the average values of fatigue across the game. 

As for DB, Redhawk and I will revisit these once again, and you are correct, Str/Tkl is too high in DB, the other factors (GI, ATH, SPEED) are certainly the most valuable. STR and TKL and HANDS all play significant roles, but in far fewer situations (after catches and for interceptions).  Thanks for the heads up. I'll adjust these now and I'll see if I can write a script that actually tests the value of each attribute as it is seen in a play. 



 
oriole - can you please check on fatigue specific to QBs?  I believe norbert ratcheted up the fatigue with QBs, but not anyone else.  I would like to see fatigue and it's effects be universal and not be different for each position.
I think fatigue needs an overhaul but think of RL.

You have RBs, WRs, OL, DL coming out more often than some of the other positions. Also they can be situationally dependent as well.

QBs play the entire game (unless there are two solid players or a lopsided score)

TEs, LBs and DBs play a vast majority of the game and are generally more situational players based on formations and down etc.
11/1/2013 12:43 PM (edited)
Slid64er. The QB does have an extra fatigue component built into it right now. I'm going to take that out because it significantly penalized the QB but not the other players. When I revisit Fatigue this week, I'll come up with a more fair assessment of each position.  

This won't go out till the next update (probably monday) but it will be included in that. Fatigue will be mostly equivalent for all positions. 

Slid64er. I'm also curious to see what you think of the latest changes. For the most part, the scores should be similar. The passing percentages will be down, but the average Yards/Play should be about what you'd expect (based on an average balanced game plan). I know this goes without saying, but if you see any anomalies let me know. 


 
11/1/2013 1:12 PM
Are the changes being applied to the dead beta worlds?  We can at least test there.  In the pay worlds, you get one game a day (or less since it's preseason), so you can't get enough data until at least midway through the regular season.  Add in a new team that you don't have baselines for and it'll take several season before there's meaningful data.
11/1/2013 2:26 PM
Posted by slid64er on 11/1/2013 1:12:00 PM (view original):
Are the changes being applied to the dead beta worlds?  We can at least test there.  In the pay worlds, you get one game a day (or less since it's preseason), so you can't get enough data until at least midway through the regular season.  Add in a new team that you don't have baselines for and it'll take several season before there's meaningful data.
Better yet, give us the test function in pay worlds for own team only!
11/1/2013 2:56 PM
Would love to have the test function in pay worlds :)
11/1/2013 7:56 PM
Yes!
11/4/2013 12:58 PM
Posted by oriole_fan on 11/1/2013 12:43:00 PM (view original):
Slid64er. The QB does have an extra fatigue component built into it right now. I'm going to take that out because it significantly penalized the QB but not the other players. When I revisit Fatigue this week, I'll come up with a more fair assessment of each position.  

This won't go out till the next update (probably monday) but it will be included in that. Fatigue will be mostly equivalent for all positions. 

Slid64er. I'm also curious to see what you think of the latest changes. For the most part, the scores should be similar. The passing percentages will be down, but the average Yards/Play should be about what you'd expect (based on an average balanced game plan). I know this goes without saying, but if you see any anomalies let me know. 


 
Have these changes been applied to the Beta worlds?
11/4/2013 2:09 PM (edited)
Posted by oriole_fan on 11/1/2013 12:43:00 PM (view original):
Slid64er. The QB does have an extra fatigue component built into it right now. I'm going to take that out because it significantly penalized the QB but not the other players. When I revisit Fatigue this week, I'll come up with a more fair assessment of each position.  

This won't go out till the next update (probably monday) but it will be included in that. Fatigue will be mostly equivalent for all positions. 

Slid64er. I'm also curious to see what you think of the latest changes. For the most part, the scores should be similar. The passing percentages will be down, but the average Yards/Play should be about what you'd expect (based on an average balanced game plan). I know this goes without saying, but if you see any anomalies let me know. 


 
THIS IS A MASSIVE MISTAKE TO REDUCE THE QB FATIGUE ASPECT.

This was done to the QB because people were running the QB out of the shotgun. The QB was running over 70 times a game for 500+ yards rushing.

If this is the game, I will cash out my remaining seasons now.
11/4/2013 2:30 PM
I would think that fatigue would be applied differently depending on what is being done.  A player carrying the ball is certainly going to expend more stamina than a QB just handing off.   A running play for a QB would burn more stamina than a passing QB.   A short route should take less than a long route (assuming neither catches the ball.)

Applying a penalty to a player just because they are in a certain position does NOT make sense.  At least, not to me.
11/4/2013 2:58 PM
Posted by bhazlewood on 11/4/2013 2:30:00 PM (view original):
I would think that fatigue would be applied differently depending on what is being done.  A player carrying the ball is certainly going to expend more stamina than a QB just handing off.   A running play for a QB would burn more stamina than a passing QB.   A short route should take less than a long route (assuming neither catches the ball.)

Applying a penalty to a player just because they are in a certain position does NOT make sense.  At least, not to me.

Do you remember when people were running the QB run shotgun for ridiculous numbers? Huge offensive outputs where the QB would rip off 30+ yd run after 30+ yd run.

When people started switching their Sr RB's to QB's to run this offense.

11/4/2013 4:15 PM
Posted by hazing on 11/4/2013 2:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bhazlewood on 11/4/2013 2:30:00 PM (view original):
I would think that fatigue would be applied differently depending on what is being done.  A player carrying the ball is certainly going to expend more stamina than a QB just handing off.   A running play for a QB would burn more stamina than a passing QB.   A short route should take less than a long route (assuming neither catches the ball.)

Applying a penalty to a player just because they are in a certain position does NOT make sense.  At least, not to me.

Do you remember when people were running the QB run shotgun for ridiculous numbers? Huge offensive outputs where the QB would rip off 30+ yd run after 30+ yd run.

When people started switching their Sr RB's to QB's to run this offense.

I'm sure he does. If fatigue was working correctly (on running plays and receivers on passing plays) there would be no need for positional modifiers for QB for fatigue. Its not realistic that every sim team from here on out will play their backup for 40% of the game. 
11/4/2013 5:05 PM
Posted by hazing on 11/4/2013 2:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bhazlewood on 11/4/2013 2:30:00 PM (view original):
I would think that fatigue would be applied differently depending on what is being done.  A player carrying the ball is certainly going to expend more stamina than a QB just handing off.   A running play for a QB would burn more stamina than a passing QB.   A short route should take less than a long route (assuming neither catches the ball.)

Applying a penalty to a player just because they are in a certain position does NOT make sense.  At least, not to me.

Do you remember when people were running the QB run shotgun for ridiculous numbers? Huge offensive outputs where the QB would rip off 30+ yd run after 30+ yd run.

When people started switching their Sr RB's to QB's to run this offense.

Yes, I remember.  Putting a one-off band-aid on a symptom is not the way to address it.  Fixing fatigue so that it works properly is.
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