All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Cabrera won MVP
11/20/2013 7:00 PM
I'm not going to specifically reply to the long post re: bill james for the sake of reading ease.

But the analogy doesn't really shed much light on anything new aside from Bill James agreeing with you. If you believe Mike Trout is the best player, he would be most likely to add the most value to a team, since he has the most talent. Overall, hes most valuable. He'd be most likely to get a team to the playoffs in an average situation. I get this argument. But "value" can be seen as circumstantial, as situational, whether you like it or not. If Trout (the ace) happens to find himself in a situation where he has a 2, 6, 8 and jack on his team, he really doesn't have that much value to the team in this hand...I mean, year.

The 7 of diamonds, in this particular instance, has a lot of value, as does the other cards in that hand. They all have the same value in this situation, they lead to a winning hand. The analogy doesnt really work here because the "ace" would help you win in baseball more than a "7" would, but it doesn't help in this hand. That really doesn't make sense from a baseball standpoint.

Actual value to his team. Not overall to any team in the league. That's how a lot of voters look at it, possibly because it's written that way in what's mailed to voters.
11/20/2013 7:04 PM
I'm confident Bill James will agree with this statement:

To anyone who isn't clinically insane, those 10 wins would be MUCH more valuable to the Rangers than they were to the Angels.
11/20/2013 7:13 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 7:04:00 PM (view original):
I'm confident Bill James will agree with this statement:

To anyone who isn't clinically insane, those 10 wins would be MUCH more valuable to the Rangers than they were to the Angels.
Even if we agree for the sake of argument that the Rangers would pay more for those 10 wins than the Angels, it doesn't diminish the value of the 10 wins. Trout is still worth more than any other player in the league.

Like I said before, assuming all else is equal, Trout would be paid more on a one year contract than any other player in the league because he was the most valuable.
11/20/2013 7:40 PM
"assuming all else is equal"

All things are not equal. That's kinda the point.
11/20/2013 7:51 PM
All players are free agents available for one year contracts. In this bizarro scenario, teams know ahead of time that they will get the exact 2013 production from each player.

Who gets paid the most?
11/20/2013 7:56 PM
Scott Boras.
11/20/2013 8:24 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/20/2013 6:15:00 PM (view original):
The question is, all else being equal, who would teams pay the most to have on a one year contract. I think it's Trout. You don't seem to disagree with that.
I think there are lots of dumbasses in this world.   So, no, I don't necessarily disagree.   However, Mr. Trout doesn't seem to be a factor in the playoffs while good pitchers are.    So where does the smart money go?  Not to players named after fish. 


So, IOW, dumbass away.  I spend my money on pitchers. 
11/20/2013 8:26 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/20/2013 5:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Value often means "importance."  Worth doesn't really have that meaning.
Upon further reflection, i guess it does.  But you're taking it in a different way.

- "How much is Mike Trout worth to you?"
- "10 WAR."
- "No, how much $ would you spend to have him on your team this year?"

Because he's more valuable, or worth more, to the Rangers than the Angels, the Rangers would likely have paid more for his services.
 
What if we did it this way:

All players are free agents available for one year contracts. All teams have an equal amount to spend on all 25 men on their roster. Who gets the biggest contract?

I'm betting it's Trout.


 
Clayton Kershaw.
11/20/2013 8:27 PM
Exactly. 
11/20/2013 8:29 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/20/2013 7:51:00 PM (view original):
All players are free agents available for one year contracts. In this bizarro scenario, teams know ahead of time that they will get the exact 2013 production from each player.

Who gets paid the most?
You keep wanting to go back to an "all things are equal" argument. I agree that that's how Id vote for MVP but value means different things to different people in this particular circumstance. A worse player can have more value to one team than a better player to another.

If you want me to say Trout here, I'll say Trout.
11/20/2013 8:31 PM
Without research, I take Price, Verlander and Hernandez too.   And I bet there are half a dozen others that aren't on the top of my head that I would pay over an OF.
11/20/2013 8:37 PM
FWIW, this is why I'm not grabbing a pitcher above all else. You named a bunch of aces. There's only 1 3b and 1 CF that did what Miggy and Trout did this year.
11/20/2013 8:39 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/20/2013 8:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/20/2013 5:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Value often means "importance."  Worth doesn't really have that meaning.
Upon further reflection, i guess it does.  But you're taking it in a different way.

- "How much is Mike Trout worth to you?"
- "10 WAR."
- "No, how much $ would you spend to have him on your team this year?"

Because he's more valuable, or worth more, to the Rangers than the Angels, the Rangers would likely have paid more for his services.
 
What if we did it this way:

All players are free agents available for one year contracts. All teams have an equal amount to spend on all 25 men on their roster. Who gets the biggest contract?

I'm betting it's Trout.


 
Clayton Kershaw.
Kershaw
Darvish
Scherzer

...is some order.
11/20/2013 9:06 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/20/2013 8:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/20/2013 5:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Value often means "importance."  Worth doesn't really have that meaning.
Upon further reflection, i guess it does.  But you're taking it in a different way.

- "How much is Mike Trout worth to you?"
- "10 WAR."
- "No, how much $ would you spend to have him on your team this year?"

Because he's more valuable, or worth more, to the Rangers than the Angels, the Rangers would likely have paid more for his services.
 
What if we did it this way:

All players are free agents available for one year contracts. All teams have an equal amount to spend on all 25 men on their roster. Who gets the biggest contract?

I'm betting it's Trout.


 
Clayton Kershaw.
Not a bad choice at all. He was my pick for NL MVP.
11/20/2013 9:15 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/20/2013 9:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 11/20/2013 8:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/20/2013 5:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/20/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Value often means "importance."  Worth doesn't really have that meaning.
Upon further reflection, i guess it does.  But you're taking it in a different way.

- "How much is Mike Trout worth to you?"
- "10 WAR."
- "No, how much $ would you spend to have him on your team this year?"

Because he's more valuable, or worth more, to the Rangers than the Angels, the Rangers would likely have paid more for his services.
 
What if we did it this way:

All players are free agents available for one year contracts. All teams have an equal amount to spend on all 25 men on their roster. Who gets the biggest contract?

I'm betting it's Trout.


 
Clayton Kershaw.
Not a bad choice at all. He was my pick for NL MVP.
An interesting choice, for you.  His oWAR was only 0.6, and his OPS+ was only 43.
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