All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Disturbing comments from Cooperstown President.
11/29/2013 6:40 PM
Innings pitched are valuable.
11/29/2013 6:44 PM

Jamie Moyer for HOF!!!!!!!!

11/29/2013 6:45 PM
What was Moyer's ERA+?
11/29/2013 6:47 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 5:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
No, of course not.  Winning games is not important.  Being ranked as superior among your peers is not important either.


Pitcher wins and team wins are not the same thing. You know this.
Funny.  They seem to go hand in hand.

Unless you have an example in which a pitcher was credited for a win in a game that his team lost.

I'll wait here while you find one.  I'll be eating a Snickers.
11/29/2013 7:18 PM
FFS. Stat nerds are the death of any Hall of Fame.
11/29/2013 8:07 PM
At the end fo the day, there's no right or wrong answer.    It's all about what you want a HOF to be.  Personally, I want the best of the best.    If I have to lobby for a guy, he's probably not a HOFer. 
11/29/2013 8:12 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/29/2013 8:07:00 PM (view original):
At the end fo the day, there's no right or wrong answer.    It's all about what you want a HOF to be.  Personally, I want the best of the best.    If I have to lobby for a guy, he's probably not a HOFer. 
I think the argument is that Glavine was among the best of the best. He's as good or better than most of the starting pitchers already in the hall. If there's a debate because someone doesn't understand that, that's their problem, not Glavine's.
11/29/2013 8:17 PM
LCD.   Almost all "cases to be made" are "He's as good as..........."  

Sofuckingwhat?
11/29/2013 8:20 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/29/2013 8:17:00 PM (view original):
LCD.   Almost all "cases to be made" are "He's as good as..........."  

Sofuckingwhat?
Lowest common denominator??? If he's as good or better than most starting pitchers already in, that's the opposite of LCD.
11/29/2013 8:22 PM (edited)
Posted by ncmusician_7 on 11/29/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
Why would you take Mussina over Glavine?  Mussina had 3563 IP with a 123 ERA+, Glavine had 4413 IP with a 118 ERA+.  Both had 9 seasons of 200+ IP and 120+ ERA+.
Neither belongs in the hall.  I would consider them very equivalent.  Same generation of pitchers with Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro, and Maddux, who belong in.  Just because we have too many deadball pitchers in the Hall doesn't mean we have to go looking for 10 guys who pitched simultaneously to put in there from every era.  Mussina, Glavine, and Schilling just aren't HOF-worthy pitchers from where I stand.  Schilling is by far the closest for me, but I still wouldn't quite put him in there.  Smoltz I would probably say yes to, but that's very close.  And if I let Smoltz in, that's 5 guys from the same generation who were primarily starters.  That seems like more than enough to me, particularly given that I'd put it at least 3 closers from the same time frame (Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner).  I could see an argument that the best starter from some time frame belongs in, even if in the whole historical context he isn't that remarkable.  But a guy who was the 6th-10th best starter in his own time, outside the top 100 all time, just doesn't cut it for me.
11/29/2013 8:22 PM
I'm not saying he's better than some shitbag who shouldn't be allowed within 100 miles of Cooperstown, even just to visit. Someone like Jack Morrus or Catfush Hunter. He's as good as most if the pitchers in.
11/29/2013 9:04 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 11/29/2013 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ncmusician_7 on 11/29/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
Why would you take Mussina over Glavine?  Mussina had 3563 IP with a 123 ERA+, Glavine had 4413 IP with a 118 ERA+.  Both had 9 seasons of 200+ IP and 120+ ERA+.
Neither belongs in the hall.  I would consider them very equivalent.  Same generation of pitchers with Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro, and Maddux, who belong in.  Just because we have too many deadball pitchers in the Hall doesn't mean we have to go looking for 10 guys who pitched simultaneously to put in there from every era.  Mussina, Glavine, and Schilling just aren't HOF-worthy pitchers from where I stand.  Schilling is by far the closest for me, but I still wouldn't quite put him in there.  Smoltz I would probably say yes to, but that's very close.  And if I let Smoltz in, that's 5 guys from the same generation who were primarily starters.  That seems like more than enough to me, particularly given that I'd put it at least 3 closers from the same time frame (Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner).  I could see an argument that the best starter from some time frame belongs in, even if in the whole historical context he isn't that remarkable.  But a guy who was the 6th-10th best starter in his own time, outside the top 100 all time, just doesn't cut it for me.
Maddux, Clemens, and Randy Johnson are top tier all time greats. I don't punish Mussina, Glavine, and Schilling just because they were a step below and pitching at the same time.
11/29/2013 9:10 PM
I have a hard time believing that most of the greatest pitchers in history pitched either before 1920 or after 1990.  Even if we can't quantify what about the game allowed guys to flourish so much during the steroid era, whether or not they were using themselves, it seems apparent to me that something allowed 4 guys (you left out Pedro) to be so historically good at the same time.
11/29/2013 9:34 PM
Clemens was on his way to being one of the best of all time until he turned to PEDs.  Anything achieved beyond that is tainted.

Cheaters should not be rewarded for cheating.
11/29/2013 9:45 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 11/29/2013 9:10:00 PM (view original):
I have a hard time believing that most of the greatest pitchers in history pitched either before 1920 or after 1990.  Even if we can't quantify what about the game allowed guys to flourish so much during the steroid era, whether or not they were using themselves, it seems apparent to me that something allowed 4 guys (you left out Pedro) to be so historically good at the same time.
Without looking, I'd guess it was just a coincidence. We went through the 80's without any real great pitchers. And it's not like we lowered the mound in 1990 and pitching took off. If anything, it was the opposite, hitters flourished.

Those four were freaks and we were incredibly lucky to get to see it. I don't think we should punish otherwise worthy pitchers because they lived at the same time.
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