Patriots Topic

I have nothing specific against Brady, but I'm so sick of people saying he's the best QB ever and pointing to his super bowl wins as the proof.  Brady has had 3 elite seasons (really 2, but I'll be generous with the third) and all of them were with Moss.  Brady is a very good QB that happened to be on a very good team with a good coach that taped enough of the other team to win some super bowls (they've won zero since then).  

He's good.  He's hall of fame good.  But he's nowhere near as good as Peyton Manning.  He's nowhere near as good as Brees.  He's nowhere near as good as Rodgers.  When you're not even top 3 in your era, there's no way you can make a case for best ever.  He won because he was on good teams.  It's amazing how people have this revisionist history sometimes.  Was Bradshaw great?  No.  But he was on really good teams that won super bowls, so people think he was great.  Football might be the biggest team sport out there.  If one person could win the super bowl for a team, Peyton would have won all of them.  It just doesn't work that way.  
1/20/2014 5:32 PM
This was probably Brady's(and his buttbuddy Bill B's) best season.   It wasn't a case of "Our receivers aren't very good", it was more "Who the **** are we putting out there this week?"   NE got to the conference championship with pretty much Brady as the lone piece of offense that could be counted on.   
1/20/2014 5:41 PM
They played in a bad division of a mediocre conference and got some breaks along the way.  

I'm not making the case that Brady stinks.  He's really, really good. HoF good.  Not all time best good though.  Maybe that's splitting hairs, but it drives me nuts when people claim he's the best ever...
1/20/2014 9:28 PM
Brady did very little the last month. The running game did most of the damage.
1/20/2014 11:27 PM
Posted by slashtc on 1/20/2014 9:28:00 PM (view original):
They played in a bad division of a mediocre conference and got some breaks along the way.  

I'm not making the case that Brady stinks.  He's really, really good. HoF good.  Not all time best good though.  Maybe that's splitting hairs, but it drives me nuts when people claim he's the best ever...

Not really a Brady fan but let's look at what you're claiming. 

Brees-decidely mediocre in SD.   Blew up with Payton in NO.     Player or system?   I'd lean system.
Rodgers-sat the bench forever.  Won a Super Bowl and had a couple of good seasons.   Is he all that or is he living of 2+ seasons?
Manning is the only one of the 3 you mentioned that you can make a legit case as "obviously more talented".   And, like Marino, he is known to come up small in big games.

Let's look a couple of other "all-time greats".
Montana-What's his phenomenal skill set?   He's recognized as an ATG because he won Super Bowls.   His coach is recognized as one of the great offensive minds of all-time.  And he had this slug named Rice to throw to.
Young-horrible in TB and sat behind Montana.   Then became great under the coach and slug named Rice.

1/21/2014 9:15 AM
I think you're making my case for me. Brees and Rodgers both have more elite seasons than Brady. Brady had zero before moss was there. Again, Brady is really, really good. Great even. Not the best ever.
1/21/2014 11:23 AM
I don't think I'm making your case for you at all.   Brees was a nobody before NO.   So how is Brady "nowhere near as good"?

I've never understood all the hoopla over Rodgers.   He won a Super Bowl and suddenly he was "one of the best".    He couldn't get on the field to start his career, didn't look like anything special when he did but then he followed it up with a SB win and two good seasons.   One of the best?   Huh?

Then you look at Montana/Young.

So much of the game is teammates, coaches and system.   Brady has been very good in the system he's been in.   Much like Brees in NO and Montana/Young in SF.  Hell, Alex Smith looked like a servicable QB in KC under Reid. 
1/21/2014 11:32 AM
Obviously I'm bias.  I personally think Brady is the greatest.  However, I can see other peoples arguement that he's not the best ever.

but to say he's not even in the top 3 of his era just screams "I'm jealous of him", and shows just how little you know about the game of football.

Also, to say that the AFC East is some crappy division, also shows how stupid you are.  Hell, the Phins beat Indy, Cinncy, SD and the Pats once.  That's 4 playoff teams.  
1/21/2014 12:51 PM
No use arguing.  You'll only see what you want to see.  Clouded by your hate of Brady and the Pats success.
1/21/2014 12:52 PM
Everyone doesn't hate Brady.   But, as with most QBs, or even athletes in general, where he landed gave him "advantages".   Put him in Cleveland, or as a fun exercise, in Indy.    He should definitely have made his way to starter pretty early but that's probably not a good thing.   He'd have played for half a dozen different coaches and the only way he'd have had a weapon is if he picked up gun a Lou's Aim and Pull.   He never even sees the field in Indy.   His career could have gone a lot differently. 
1/21/2014 1:52 PM
I look at stats. They don't tell the whole story, but they tell a chunk of it. Winning only should be used to differentiate between similar careers. Look at Brady's stats and tell me what is elite when he didn't have moss.
1/21/2014 2:32 PM
Look at Brady 2001-2006 and tell me how other than record its better than brees in sd.
1/21/2014 2:37 PM
1. Brett Favre 508  1991-2010  4TM
2. Peyton Manning (36) 491  1998-2013  2TM
3. Dan Marino+ 420  1983-1999  mia
4. Drew Brees (33) 363  2001-2013  2TM
5. Tom Brady (35) 359  2000-2013  nwe
6. Fran Tarkenton+ 342  1961-1978  2TM
7. John Elway+ 300  1983-1998  den

Over 300 of those were to dudes not named Moss.   So, assuming he wouldn't have thrown any of those Moss TDs to anyone else, he's still in front of Elway. 
1/21/2014 2:43 PM
Elway didn't play in this era either.  But that's not the point, is it?

2001-2006 NWE 95 94 70-24-0 1895 3061 61.9% 21558 147 4.8 78 2.5 91 7.0 6.9 11.4 226.9
Average 16 16   316 510   3593 24   13
2002-2005 SDG 58 58 30-28-0 1110 1782 62.3% 12127 79 4.4 53 3.0 79 6.8 6.4 10.9 209.1
Average 14 14   278 446   3032 20   13

That's Brady from 01-06 vs your Brees that you said was no good in SD.  Pretty comparable any way you look at it other than record, and SD wasn't loaded with WRs either.

Again, not saying Brady sucks.  He's really, really good.  He's not the best ever.  That's all I'm saying, and that isn't an insult to Brady.

Peyton Manning 2001 - 2006 (for reference):
Average 16 16   353 535   4216 32   14
1/21/2014 6:36 PM (edited)
Tarkenton didn't play in this era either.   Nor did Marino.    

Anyway, almost 600 yards, 40  completions and 4 TD is a pretty good bit more.    Not much less than the difference between Brady/Manning in the same time period.
1/21/2014 7:21 PM
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