1/6/2014 5:19 PM
Nice posts chalvorson and harris very informative!
1/6/2014 5:23 PM
I guess I don't understand the uproar over the (new) importance of formation IQ.  It seems to make perfect sense to me.  If you have a team of guys who do nothing but run, lift weights and watch film, you have a bunch of strong, fast guys who can watch TV.  A track team.  If they play a game of football against a team that runs, lifts weights, watches film and actually practices football (a football team), they will very often lose said football game to said football team.  It would take an enormous disparity in physical prowess to make up the difference.

Response-This isn't adequate as a response because no one here doesn't practice formation IQ. The topic of this discussion is why teams that are far superior in Talent lose to SIM's
1/6/2014 5:52 PM
Posted by jfootball88 on 1/6/2014 5:23:00 PM (view original):
I guess I don't understand the uproar over the (new) importance of formation IQ.  It seems to make perfect sense to me.  If you have a team of guys who do nothing but run, lift weights and watch film, you have a bunch of strong, fast guys who can watch TV.  A track team.  If they play a game of football against a team that runs, lifts weights, watches film and actually practices football (a football team), they will very often lose said football game to said football team.  It would take an enormous disparity in physical prowess to make up the difference.

Response-This isn't adequate as a response because no one here doesn't practice formation IQ. The topic of this discussion is why teams that are far superior in Talent lose to SIM's

I don't have an explanation, as I didn't design the engine.  Since we're all guessing, I would guess that having skill position players on offense with an average of a 45 (of a perfect 100) understanding of how to run a play out of their formation going against an entire defense of players with a 65-70 (of a perfect 100) understanding of how to defend a play out of their formation.

I'm (reasonably) sure it's not straight percentages, but a 45 formation IQ rating would seem to mean that there would be more plays that the skill players DON'T execute properly than those they do.  Receivers would run the wrong routes, running backs wouldn't know where to look for holes, quarterbacks would throw to the wrong spot on timing routes, etc.

I'm not defending the obvious issues that exist with the engine or the poor communication from staff here, but it makes sense to me.  I didn't play much under version 2 though, so I'm not used to the idea that formation IQ wouldn't mean much, if anything.

1/6/2014 6:43 PM
While I somewhat agree with your theory examinerebb it makes no sense for a team that has 4 or 5 stud freshman and sophmores to lose to a team with seniors that have a higher iq but half the talent.Freshman and sophmores start and star in college all the time they don't come into real college football a bunch of dummies that don't know how to play.The only way you can gain iq is playing until your a junior or senior and that is not a way to decide games between power teams and crappy sims.Iq and playcalling should be a limit factor to the outcome of games talent should be far and away above them imo.
1/6/2014 6:50 PM
Posted by jaxbaker on 1/6/2014 6:43:00 PM (view original):
While I somewhat agree with your theory examinerebb it makes no sense for a team that has 4 or 5 stud freshman and sophmores to lose to a team with seniors that have a higher iq but half the talent.Freshman and sophmores start and star in college all the time they don't come into real college football a bunch of dummies that don't know how to play.The only way you can gain iq is playing until your a junior or senior and that is not a way to decide games between power teams and crappy sims.Iq and playcalling should be a limit factor to the outcome of games talent should be far and away above them imo.
This goes back to recruiting and imagination. Why would it be so difficult for all recruits to have a formation IQ for one formation in the 50's? This may make them more or less popular to recruit for some teams, but for teams that play that formation they could fit in as FR or SO. Other teams would have to develop them longer.
1/6/2014 6:57 PM
Posted by jaxbaker on 1/6/2014 6:43:00 PM (view original):
While I somewhat agree with your theory examinerebb it makes no sense for a team that has 4 or 5 stud freshman and sophmores to lose to a team with seniors that have a higher iq but half the talent.Freshman and sophmores start and star in college all the time they don't come into real college football a bunch of dummies that don't know how to play.The only way you can gain iq is playing until your a junior or senior and that is not a way to decide games between power teams and crappy sims.Iq and playcalling should be a limit factor to the outcome of games talent should be far and away above them imo.
I think it's a finer line than that.  How does Boise State beat Oklahoma in a bowl game?  Their talent was nowhere near on par with the Sooners, but they executed plays in a way that Oklahoma couldn't deal with well enough to win.

I am in total agreement with one point of your argument - there should be recruits who walk on campus with a good formation IQ,  even if it's only a single formation.  It would be very much like coaches do now - either recruit to your system, or adjust your system based on your recruit(s).
1/6/2014 7:25 PM
Upsets happen all the time on a broad spectrum but in college football or nfl ,teams with significantly more talent whether they have some freshmen, sophomores playing or not they don't get upset by crap teams 3 to 4 times a year it just doesn't happen,stating one upset doesn't mean anything that's not what people are getting mad about its the constant upsets to sims and crap teams.If your a stud then your a stud period whether your a freshmen or not sure you will be better when your a senior but it doesn't mean your crap because your not a senior.TALENT SHOULD BE KING PERIOD not lucky playcalling and formation Iq that's just ridiculous
1/6/2014 7:43 PM
Posted by examinerebb on 1/6/2014 6:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jaxbaker on 1/6/2014 6:43:00 PM (view original):
While I somewhat agree with your theory examinerebb it makes no sense for a team that has 4 or 5 stud freshman and sophmores to lose to a team with seniors that have a higher iq but half the talent.Freshman and sophmores start and star in college all the time they don't come into real college football a bunch of dummies that don't know how to play.The only way you can gain iq is playing until your a junior or senior and that is not a way to decide games between power teams and crappy sims.Iq and playcalling should be a limit factor to the outcome of games talent should be far and away above them imo.
I think it's a finer line than that.  How does Boise State beat Oklahoma in a bowl game?  Their talent was nowhere near on par with the Sooners, but they executed plays in a way that Oklahoma couldn't deal with well enough to win.

I am in total agreement with one point of your argument - there should be recruits who walk on campus with a good formation IQ,  even if it's only a single formation.  It would be very much like coaches do now - either recruit to your system, or adjust your system based on your recruit(s).
To be fair, our playcalling method on this game is not near akin to the brilliance of the Boise St. playcalling- as a simulation, there are limits.

I don't think anyone wants talent to be the ONLY factor, I think people just want to see talent as the main factor. In real life, I think that is pretty much how it goes- the more talented team is, USUALLY, the victor. That does not mean they can't be out-coached, by any means. But in every real life upset, you can point to some determining factor (be it playcalling, execution, or even luck) and GD needs to have the same sort of cause/effect relationship that is consistent enough for us to make sense of.
1/6/2014 7:44 PM
If I'm right, freshman come in with far too low of a formation IQ. But think this through with me. If you coached a player who could only execute plays correctly 40-45 percent of the time, would you play him? Maybe, but only on specific plays that you were confident he could execute. We don't have that level of control in the sim. So would you play him if he had to be in on every play? Probably not.

Better yet, put the onus on the coach. How successful would a college coach be if he devoted 80-90% of his practice time to weightlifting, running, film study and individual drills, but only had his offense and defense practice running plays 10-20% of the time? I would guess that the talent level wouldn't matter all that much if you sent plays in and it was a coin flip as to whether or not your players knew what they were supposed to do on any given play.

All I'm saying is that it makes sense, if you think about it in terms of actual football. If this is the case, however, tweaks need to be made to the formation IQ for incoming freshmen.
1/6/2014 8:53 PM
Bosie Beats OU because of GP and the players are not that far off.  But Idaho docent beat OU, Rutgers docent beat OU.  
1/6/2014 11:03 PM
Don't mean to digress, but is this unexplainable losing to Sims just a Div IA issue? I haven't had any teams above DIII since 3.0 (on purpose) and haven't lost to a Sim yet. If it is true that 3.0 inadequacies are more troublesome at the higher levels, it seems prudent to stay at DIII until we get a working engine. (Disclaimer - I don't use Wishbone.)
1/7/2014 2:45 AM
Posted by kas1007 on 1/6/2014 8:53:00 PM (view original):
Bosie Beats OU because of GP and the players are not that far off.  But Idaho docent beat OU, Rutgers docent beat OU.  
Appalachian State does beat Michigan. And no real life teams trot out a field full of players who don't understand the playbook, as happens consistently here.
1/7/2014 8:03 AM
How about this for a "Sim beats me all the time at D1" hypothesis -

I'm in the 2nd year of a rebuild and have 2 classes of decent recruits that play a lot, but have low formation IQ's. I don't play many JR/SR players because they aren't very good and/or I want my younger guys to develop,
The Sims I play have upperclassmen who have similar ratings to my FR/SO, but with higher formation IQ's.
Therefore, with increased emphasis on formation IQ's, the Sims will most likely out perform my FR/SO players.

1/7/2014 8:06 AM
lol examinerebb your killing me here college guys do play high school football and many years before that so to say they don't understand the playbook is complete crap.there is plenty of guys that come straight to the nfl out of college and start in their 1 or 2nd year and have success even qbs Russell Wilson,.Andrew luck etc and lots of other position players.So to sit here and say that guys that are average to below average players in the nfl or college just because they have experience should outperform studs that are in there 1st or 2nd year because they understand the playbook better is complete stupidity and I wish you would drop that argument it doesn't work.Stars and great players are called that for a reason,sure with experience they will get better that's obvious and we are not talking about trotting out teams full of freshmen and sophmores all people want is a game where if you play some first year and second year guys in your lineup and you dominate in every area why should you lose to crap teams because they have a team full of seniors that understand the playbook better.Peyton manning and Andrew luck probably understood the playbook better then 80 percent of players in the nfl in their 2nd year.Players at these levels are not dummies or they would not be there and iq should not play that big of role in this game that's just a way of evening the playing field.If you dominate in all areas you win most times in any sport is anyone going to argue that.NO THATS ALL PEOPLE WANT.AND TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY LOST AND NO SORRY FORMATION IQ IS A DUMB ARGUEMENT WHEN YOUR DOMINATED IN EVERY WAY AS FAR AS TALENT.sure you should have to practice formations to get better and obviously when you have experience you are better just don't have it be such a big part of the game and it is right now and so is playcalling and they shouldn't be
1/7/2014 8:13 AM
hypnotoad your answer is the way it should be.but we are talking about teams that play freshmen and sophomores that have way more talent then the seniors there playing and the seniors are outperforming them based on IQ,Thats just not right if guys or teams are evenly matched then sure the seniors should perform better but that's not what is upsetting people
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