All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Tannermcc & associates are LargeScale Cheaters
5/9/2014 9:06 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 5/9/2014 8:55:00 PM (view original):
guys... simmer down now. you guys are all apparently too new of coaches to know that what tanner is talking about happened *all the time* in old HD. thats why so many long timers are so adamant about having a hard-line policy, no sharing of any information whatsoever, except possibly for mentoring situations where its extremely unlikely that exchange of recruiting information could help either coach (outside of the mentoring itself).

i think its pretty ridiculous to crucify tanner for this when dozens if not hundreds of coaches participated in this back in the day. its already common knowledge, in the sense that its openly known this happened, not in the sense that everyone knows it (think, the literary definition of common knowledge). oldresorter in particular spent a great deal of effort convincing the game's creator to create fair play guidelines. so maybe rather than criticize tanner, send oldresorter a line thanking him for his part in stopping that madness.

as to the GLV comments, there were definitely inter conference battles, and every time anyone made a comment about not battling in conference, i went on this long diatribe about how even though i generally would never poach in conference (i never said i wouldn't battle in conference), it wasn't ok to explicitly agree. to my knowledge, no explicit agreement was ever made by anyone. however, there was definitely a group mentality in the conference, we wanted to be the best conference in d2 anywhere (and we were, by a lot). i can only remember one or two poaching situations, but there were battles. on a somewhat related note, the one time i did poach in conference, it resulted in a massive backlash, including death threads (the guy was crazy, but after he wouldn't let go of a guy in an early battle that he had no shot of winning, i may have been a bit brutal in my response, to make a point - it was earlier in my career, and the recruiting framework was substantially different than it is today, insofar as those kinds of tactics were possible). although, i never did actually sign the guys i "poached", i had zero intention of signing those crappy players, it was all about making a point. still, i certainly didn't try to tell others they weren't allowed to do that or anything. but anyway, a lot of really great coaches came through there and we had some great rivalries, and not a lot but some in conference battles (although almost never any poaching, especially in the days of my heavy mentoring). one time in d1 one of those coaches asked me if a guy who appeared to be a backup target was actually a backup target, and it kind of ruined HD for me for a while, because it was a guy who i respected so much... but then again, it was the least bad of about 10 collusive sitemails from that time period, and maybe i was a little harsh on him. it was possibly my worst moment in HD though, and at least top 2, i would never have been able to take pride in the mighty GLV if there were shady dealings going on.

for the record, the GLV getting so strong made it drastically harder for me to individually be successful. it was good for the conference, but bad for individual championships, because there were *so* many high end teams and so many top coaches. this was before the projection report changes when it was almost impossible to send more than 6 teams to the NT, out of lower division conferences, so the super conferences you see in some places today are really far easier to build than it was back then... we had guys with multiple championships failing to make the NT almost every season, because they couldn't make it to .500. i knew that would happen up front, and i also had declining interest which multiplied things, but it was only the fun of the competition that made being in a conference like that worth it - from a championships standpoint, it was awful.



I didn't know this.

I always though the "everyone else is doing it" was just the justification for doing it since I only came across it once.

This makes me feel a little better. Thanks!
5/9/2014 9:13 PM (edited)
also... i really don't like this demigod stuff. especially because etta started it, but i would dislike it regardless. today, even if i tried my hardest, i wouldn't be close to the best coach in the game. well... maybe i'd be close ;) but i certainly wouldn't be there. my opinion should only be counted as one of many, and i've said many times, you are a fool to take the words of any one person (including myself, or even seble) as written in stone (you are similarly a fool to discount the theories of anyone just because they haven't won big - i got a great tip from a furry_nips post years ago, for the newer coaches, he was the etta of 5 years ago, albeit a much softer version. also, he turned it around completely, i guess time will tell what happens here). the only reason a lot of people look up to me is because my "time spent with others" to "time spent with my own teams" is easily 10:1 over the past 5 or so years. 4 years? i can't remember, but that adds up either way. i guess the championships help a bit, but really, there are plenty of other coaches who are just as good a source of information. i just choose to share that information a bit... excessively :) frankly, its half for selfish reasons, its how i stay connected to the game i loved so much, but became so bored of. i am a real sucker for nostalgia, i go back and play ocarina of time every 3 years or something.
5/9/2014 9:12 PM
Oh great, now you feel better about being a cheater...way to keep it classy San Diego.
5/9/2014 9:13 PM
no problem tanner. i always respected your work with the 3 defense system, for what its worth ;)
5/9/2014 9:13 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/9/2014 8:55:00 PM (view original):
I really don't feel like getting into semantics of past and present tenses because that could go on all night.

It makes me even more mad because of the way tanner went about it. For those few of us that had the horror of reading it, he went on about how he was ashamed and wanted some sort of forgiveness...yet turned around and deleted it five minutes later because the shame of being known as a cheater is obviously worse to tanner than internal shame coming from his conscience. Then he has the balls to show up on this thread and say he doesn't mind be called and known as a cheater...oh really tanner...then why did you delete that post???

And to top it off, late last night I site-mailed him asking what happened to the thread and he lied to me as to what happened, then he posted on this thread (having since deleted his post) acting as if it never happened and as if I was crazy.

So, the fact that a cheater tried to use lying and cowardice to cover up his unprovoked admission of guilt drives me up a wall...and that's why I'm not changing or deleting this thread until he meets the request I previously made.
Don't want this to get buried.
5/9/2014 9:27 PM (edited)
i think you made that point enough times not to burry it, nacho. i still think it being so many years ago, and the climate in HD with respect to what was fair being so different, makes a huge difference. maybe i am just a sucker for 2nd chances (see: all my communications with colonels in his bad times and etta). but really, from what i heard this stuff was happening in every world, and i guess if tanner started it all, thats worse, but getting sucked into it once you realize you are screwed if you don't... that just makes you more like, the average sucker, not some mastermind of cheating, like you make it out to be.
5/9/2014 9:36 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 5/9/2014 8:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 5/9/2014 8:55:00 PM (view original):
I really don't feel like getting into semantics of past and present tenses because that could go on all night.

It makes me even more mad because of the way tanner went about it. For those few of us that had the horror of reading it, he went on about how he was ashamed and wanted some sort of forgiveness...yet turned around and deleted it five minutes later because the shame of being known as a cheater is obviously worse to tanner than internal shame coming from his conscience. Then he has the balls to show up on this thread and say he doesn't mind be called and known as a cheater...oh really tanner...then why did you delete that post???

And to top it off, late last night I site-mailed him asking what happened to the thread and he lied to me as to what happened, then he posted on this thread (having since deleted his post) acting as if it never happened and as if I was crazy.

So, the fact that a cheater tried to use lying and cowardice to cover up his unprovoked admission of guilt drives me up a wall...and that's why I'm not changing or deleting this thread until he meets the request I previously made.
i think the fact he openly admitted it says something, especially given that this has all come out already, although not the specifics of who was involved... and so does the fact that others did it, too. it doesn't make it right, but still. i might be overstating things saying it happened all the time, but it was absolutely not an isolated incident.
He didn't mean to openly admit it, which is obvious from him deleting the thread.

What makes you any kind of a voice of reason on this? Weren't *you* banned for cheating?
5/9/2014 10:02 PM
I knew it!  #cheetowin
5/9/2014 10:07 PM
i was never banned, i dropped all teams in protest. seble was going to make me move one team for having teams in different divisions that were within 1000 miles, even though that was always allowed until his recent change, and it was only not allowed after a confusing and unexplained change to the fair play guidelines, which we were informed of with "hey, the multi page fair play guidlines was updated" (which happened often enough and with no indication of the changes to make it pretty annoying to read). although, i read it, obviously, and recognized that section changed, and felt it was ambiguous, but never wanted to follow up because there was an age-old unspoken rule, which was actually explicitly spoken by old admin, but not seble, that they didn't care about multiple teams unless you abused it. you didn't push the issue, and neither did they - its always been like that. hell, its even like that now.

so, i just ignored it, like we all had for many years prior. partly because old admin specifically said he didn't care, partly because new admin had went years without addressing the situation. plus, i picked up the second of those two teams before the rule change, so its not even like i picked up the 2nd team in violation. seble is the idiot who doesn't realize teams in different divisions were explicitly allowed regardless of distance - he actually still disagrees with me that was ever the case, even though everyone around a long time knows it was. so, its not like even *he* knew he changed the rule on that front. you don't just change something like that without telling people, and without offering some guidance on how to reconcile the situation for people who have put a great deal of time and money into those two teams. seble is also the idiot who doesn't realize how wide spread he was, a fact he readily admits - tons of the longest time and/or most engaged coaches, had multiple teams in a world, especially tark (as it was the only new world, and only 2/day world, for a very long time). should i have moved anyway? maybe, but a hundred other coaches were in the same situation, and none of them did. if seble had actually indicated he gave a crap, and had changed the rules openly with a discussion how to reconcile, i would have moved, of course. but he didn't, so i didn't. its a for-fun game, when a rule comes about to placate a couple whiners, and its not enforced, do you really expect everyone to pay attention? specifically, when the rule came out on multiple teams in the first place, it was specifically said (in slightly different words) that the rule was simply to placate a couple whiners. maybe you expect people rush to follow these kinds of "whiner rules", but it doesn't really work like that... in any game like this... anywhere. ever. to me, 99.9% of the blame is on seble, and 0.1% blame on the hundred coaches who had teams picked up in compliance who just ignored the rule change, which was par for the course. half of them are still in violation. if seble REALLY cared, do you think he would abide that? no. he was just doing the minimum to be able to pretend he cared, and not one iota more - just like it has been for a decade. the one thing i wish i recognized is how many coaches actually care about multiple teams, because i really had no idea about that. there were theoretical discussions all the time, and people would weigh in, but i never got the impression people were actually upset about it.

i think a small % of the coaches do hold it against me that i had multiple teams (since i started playing, even though it was allowed then and even with conditions which i met up to the latest rule change), but i really don't care, everyone who is not a total retard understands it was a complex situation. nobody has ever brought forth anything like, i abused the situation, or anything like that. the simple reality is, with who i am, if i ever colluded with people, that would have definitely come out. plus, i was open about having multiple teams in the same world since i picked up my 2nd team a good 6 years ago, never hid it, often engaged in forum discussions with explicit statements about how i had multiple teams in the same state even (those were d3 and d1 in that case), and why, from my personal experience, i thought that was ok (with names gillispie and gillispie1 coaching those teams, it was never a secret to start with). if i had anything to hide, why would i do that? so, you can think what you want - but i've been a vocal proponent of fair play for 5 years, and just because one day the whole multiple team thing blew up, for the first time, and i was the obvious one affected (less than 5 of the 100 offenders in all were affected in that instance), it doesn't change that at all. i think most consider my opinions on this valid, in spite of that situation. you are perfectly welcome to consider my opinions invalid though, like you already do on every other subject...
5/9/2014 10:41 PM
So reading the above Billy, you think that: "99.9% of the blame is on seble, and 0.1% blame on the hundred coaches who had teams picked up in compliance who just ignored the rule change, which was par for the course. half of them are still in violation."

I am not sure I am following that it is OK, now with a rule change that has been in effect for quite awhile, to blame the people enforcing the violations for failure to catch those that are cheating as a reason to cheat. Seems to me a weak excuse for cheating at game for fun.
5/9/2014 10:44 PM
Posted by taniajane on 5/9/2014 10:41:00 PM (view original):
So reading the above Billy, you think that: "99.9% of the blame is on seble, and 0.1% blame on the hundred coaches who had teams picked up in compliance who just ignored the rule change, which was par for the course. half of them are still in violation."

I am not sure I am following that it is OK, now with a rule change that has been in effect for quite awhile, to blame the people enforcing the violations for failure to catch those that are cheating as a reason to cheat. Seems to me a weak excuse for cheating at game for fun.
i don't fault them personally, i don't think its reasonable not to grandfather people in (some with multiple years - and hundreds of dollars - into BOTH of the teams, before the rule changed - i dont think its fair to make the people move like that over unrelated complains about other coaches). but, i won't really argue if its ok for people to do it today now that seble has taken a stand. i don't think people should pick up teams in violation, but you'll probably never convince me the people who picked up the rules in accordance with the rules should have to move. that said - that really has nothing to do with if it was OK back when the rule was fairly new, and seble had never openly talked about it, or taken a stand. that was the situation in my case...
5/9/2014 10:56 PM
So you cheated, but you thought it was OK because no one cared. And many people still do (maybe you still do, for all I know) and that's OK because no one seems to care now either.

I think it's completely ridiculous that you're allowed to have multiple teams in the same world. There are a large number of worlds...no reason really to have multiple teams in one unless you have already have a team in every world or something, and then if you still want more maybe you need to start looking at the life choices you make.

scaturo joined the OAC in D-III while still having a D-I team whose resources he could use to gain information for the D3 recruiting. The funds aren't comingled obviously, but it would be simple enough to look at guys' potentials on the D-I team and say "hrm he could be useful in D3". Why even open the door to that happening? It's just wrong and it's cheating whether there's enforcement against it or not.

Sounds like you threw your toys out of the baby carriage in a temper tantrum because you didn't like the changes that were being made...hrm seems a lot like how people react to recommended changes to the sim that they don't like...
5/9/2014 11:02 PM (edited)
Posted by ettaexpress on 5/9/2014 10:56:00 PM (view original):
So you cheated, but you thought it was OK because no one cared. And many people still do (maybe you still do, for all I know) and that's OK because no one seems to care now either.

I think it's completely ridiculous that you're allowed to have multiple teams in the same world. There are a large number of worlds...no reason really to have multiple teams in one unless you have already have a team in every world or something, and then if you still want more maybe you need to start looking at the life choices you make.

scaturo joined the OAC in D-III while still having a D-I team whose resources he could use to gain information for the D3 recruiting. The funds aren't comingled obviously, but it would be simple enough to look at guys' potentials on the D-I team and say "hrm he could be useful in D3". Why even open the door to that happening? It's just wrong and it's cheating whether there's enforcement against it or not.

Sounds like you threw your toys out of the baby carriage in a temper tantrum because you didn't like the changes that were being made...hrm seems a lot like how people react to recommended changes to the sim that they don't like...
im not going to argue with you, all the fight is taken out of me on this one. numerous reasons are well documented on why people would want multiple teams (some of which had been picked up before FSS/potential even existed). also, its perfectly legal and allowed to have multiple teams in the same world, as long as they are outside the semi-arbitrary 1000 mile limit - even with both in d1, which is a far greater issue than in different divisions within 1000 miles. so, apparently even admin doesn't agree with you on your 3rd paragraph. you can easily find threads from which to educate yourself on the finer points, if you want more information. 
5/9/2014 11:00 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 5/9/2014 10:56:00 PM (view original):
So you cheated, but you thought it was OK because no one cared. And many people still do (maybe you still do, for all I know) and that's OK because no one seems to care now either.

I think it's completely ridiculous that you're allowed to have multiple teams in the same world. There are a large number of worlds...no reason really to have multiple teams in one unless you have already have a team in every world or something, and then if you still want more maybe you need to start looking at the life choices you make.

scaturo joined the OAC in D-III while still having a D-I team whose resources he could use to gain information for the D3 recruiting. The funds aren't comingled obviously, but it would be simple enough to look at guys' potentials on the D-I team and say "hrm he could be useful in D3". Why even open the door to that happening? It's just wrong and it's cheating whether there's enforcement against it or not.

Sounds like you threw your toys out of the baby carriage in a temper tantrum because you didn't like the changes that were being made...hrm seems a lot like how people react to recommended changes to the sim that they don't like...
Ettaexpress making fun of someone else for immaturity.

The irony never ceases.
5/9/2014 11:04 PM
I Understand it was an inconvenience to move. I Understand that Maybe some had legitimate reasons for wanting multiple teams in same general area in same world. I don't understand how anyone can believe they did not use that information on recruiting for their own benefit. No matter what the excuses for doing it they made. Now  you say there is still Half of a Hundred still doing it like it is nothing to the people that do not do that.
Sorry, I will never be the coach that many of them are or have the records that many of them have. Now if what you say is true, I can not help but wonder if that is my fault or  the people that decided to take advantage of loops holes to win championships and free seasons.

I don't doubt that it is still going on at all. Oh well. I play for enjoyment. People will always find ways to cheat, lie, steal in life and find excuses for why they do it.
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