Posted by Trentonjoe on 8/2/2015 7:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 8/2/2015 4:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by colonels19 on 8/1/2015 1:22:00 PM (view original):
I disagree with TJ here.  I know for slowdown in the NBA sim, what ab90 said is true, and I don't see why HD would be fundamentally different.  I definitely think that slowdown affects/increases turnover rate.

Because this isn't NBA sim and its not programmed the same.

I think the event tree is pretty similar....the main difference is the stats they use (ratings vs historical stats).

This is a site that doesn't do a thing for updates. No way they'd have created entirely separate engines for the basketball sims. That would have been, like, hard work, or something.

It's also a pretty sound one that produces more or less realistic results....I asked awhile back if they would publish an example of how a possession is determined (they did it for a baseball plate appearance 7 years ago) and they pointed me to the knowledge base article....not exactly what I wanted but interesting nonetheless

i had the same logical assumption as you, ab (and colonels). but after carefully considering this, the answer is no. well - to be clear - on a per game level, the rate of turnovers for a slowdown team will be lower, than if they ran normal. but on a per possession level, the slowdown teams will not have a higher rate of turnovers.

im pretty much positive about this one, i wouldn't say 100%, but close. my #1 goal of all my great teams of old was to maximize my press, and i was particularly concerned with the rate of turnovers we caused. i figured that a team trying to hold the ball for 30s against my ultra-efficient press team would cause more turnovers, but it didn't. it actually really ****** me off :) anyway, that is the most extreme case - observing the turnovers caused against the highest turnover producing defenses - where you have the best opportunity to observe a difference. i expected one and did not see it, and i was REALLY looking hard at that, i think my first 15 championships were with press. so i think its safe to say no on this one, the rate is not higher. i wouldn't 100% rule out it being lower, but, i don't think that is the case either.

i don't agree with it... and colonels, i agree its common sense it should matter. but this engine doesn't always follow common sense. i actually think it really helped me that i was a more casual basketball fan (loved the wildcats but never watched a game without them), and didn't have a lot of pre-dispositions to thinking things worked a certain way. it let me just learn through experimentation instead of assuming a lot, and i think that really helped, because there is definitely a lot of stuff i learned along the way that is highly counter-intuitive but nonetheless apparently the better way to do things within HD.

edit: fatigue is a significant factor, so if running slowdown has a meaningful positive impact on your levels of fatigue, you will definitely see lower rates of turnovers per possession in slowdown than in normal tempo. but this is a by-product of fatigue rather than an inherent feature of slowdown itself, i believe.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 8/1/2015 1:39:00 PM (view original):
I can't find any reference to tempo in the turnover equation  for the NBA SIM engine.....it's number 582 in the knowledgebase....sorry I can't cut and paste

is tempo part of the NBA sim? while im pretty confident the answer here is no, with respect to slowdown, i am not when it comes to uptempo. there was a study once by jimjoebob or bobjoejim or some combination of those names, where he did a statistical analysis of a per-possession rate of fouls, turnovers, and something else, for normal vs uptempo. there was a long debate about whether the only impact of tempo was on fatigue levels or not. his studies showed a significant difference between normal and uptempo for some of those factors, and i think fouls and turnovers may have both been among those affected (im pretty sure fouls were). 

come to think of it, i really want to find that study, if anyone has seen it recently and could paste it, i'd love to revisit. rgerkin has spent some time convincing me tempo is only affecting fatigue and all the other impacts are indirect effects inherent in fatigue, not inherent in tempo itself. but in that study, the rate of fouls actually went down. we figured this was to reduce the # of fouls in uptempo games, as they could get out of hand if the rate was not lowered from normal tempo. from fatigue, you'd expect the rate of fouls to go up. this was in the old engine when the impact of extreme fatigue was less than it is now, but the impact of minor fatigue may have been higher than it is now (or maybe on par, im really not sure).

anyway it seems to me if the rate of fouls and turnovers per possession went down in uptempo that would show evidence of non-fatigue based effects of tempo. if they went up, you could just blame fatigue. i suppose you could argue the team running the uptempo was the one getting tired so their ability to draw fouls and to force turnovers went down. hmm. now i confused myself, as i can't recall back then if uptempo increased fatigue for both teams or just the one running it. it DEFINITELY increased fatigue for the one running it. im not sure about the other team. actually if i had to guess i would say the impact on the running team was at least significantly higher than the impact on the other team. you'd think their rate of fouls would have went up though. i can't recall which team the study was even studying, the team running uptempo, the other team, or both. damn... wish i could find that...

edit: random note - i got burned by comparing to the NBA sim once. NBA sim formulas included assist rates of team mates in the offensive efficiency of the shooter, however it was expressed. but in HD, this got dropped, because there was no assist input fed into the game. i assumed it was replaced with like some combination of passing ball handling maybe ath/spd and iq. but seble insisted this was not that case - although he agreed it should have been and changed that when he re-wrote the new engine. so i think they are pretty similar but definitely not always the same. thats also an example of where common sense failed me... i was sure having a chris paul type PG would give your scorers better looks than having a big man play PG. but it wasn't that way, apparently, at least seble was very adamant that it was not, and eventually he managed to convince me...

KB #124 describes tempo in the NBA game, its effect is LESS turnover......although I imagine it is less total turnovers not per possession