pp videos Topic

Genuine curiosity: 
 
How do the planned parenthood videos change anyone's mind?
 
If you are pro-life, you're already against abortion regardless of what happens to the fetal tissue after it is aborted.
 
If you are pro-choice, then you've already decided that you are OK with abortions. Does it matter what happens to the tissue afterward?
8/11/2015 2:35 PM
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I'LL PAY FOR YE MAMMY'S LONG OVERDUE ABORTION!!!! 
8/11/2015 3:19 PM
This thread sure took off.
8/21/2015 8:10 AM
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Posted by bad_luck on 8/11/2015 2:35:00 PM (view original):
Genuine curiosity: 
 
How do the planned parenthood videos change anyone's mind?
 
If you are pro-life, you're already against abortion regardless of what happens to the fetal tissue after it is aborted.
 
If you are pro-choice, then you've already decided that you are OK with abortions. Does it matter what happens to the tissue afterward?
The PP videos help to show what abortion actually is.  The fact that they profit from the sale of organs only serves to help remind what some of the motives are, and why PP goes to great lengths to hide behind innocuous sounding words that help take the focus off of what really happens.

There are people who are in the videos themselves who have obviously changed their minds, particularly when they've seen babies born alive before they are butchered .... something our current president supports.

The profiting from the sale of "tissue" is only tip of the iceberg to me.  They wouldn't sell them if there wasn't a market for them.  That makes this issue much deeper to me.

Just because people have "decided" doesn't mean they cannot be persuaded.  Many people I've talked to who are pro-choice don't even consider what abortion actually is and what the procedure actually does. I've been surprised over the years to find out how many don't even understand what biological facts exist and what happens when a pregnancy is terminated (a life is ended).  Some accept those facts and push full steam ahead - others have to consider what the facts are.

If the videos help force discussion on the subject, all the better.  If the fetus really is a clump of cells and nothing more, then there should be no interest in making abortions safe and rare, as Mr. and Mrs. Clinton along with PP have urged.  No justification would even be necessary.  If the fetus is living (it is), and it's a living something (it's DNA is human), then no justification for abortion would be adequate.

Facts can change minds.  They changed mine, once I saw what abortion really was.


8/24/2015 3:59 PM
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Posted by silentpadna on 8/24/2015 3:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/11/2015 2:35:00 PM (view original):
Genuine curiosity: 
 
How do the planned parenthood videos change anyone's mind?
 
If you are pro-life, you're already against abortion regardless of what happens to the fetal tissue after it is aborted.
 
If you are pro-choice, then you've already decided that you are OK with abortions. Does it matter what happens to the tissue afterward?
The PP videos help to show what abortion actually is.  The fact that they profit from the sale of organs only serves to help remind what some of the motives are, and why PP goes to great lengths to hide behind innocuous sounding words that help take the focus off of what really happens.

There are people who are in the videos themselves who have obviously changed their minds, particularly when they've seen babies born alive before they are butchered .... something our current president supports.

The profiting from the sale of "tissue" is only tip of the iceberg to me.  They wouldn't sell them if there wasn't a market for them.  That makes this issue much deeper to me.

Just because people have "decided" doesn't mean they cannot be persuaded.  Many people I've talked to who are pro-choice don't even consider what abortion actually is and what the procedure actually does. I've been surprised over the years to find out how many don't even understand what biological facts exist and what happens when a pregnancy is terminated (a life is ended).  Some accept those facts and push full steam ahead - others have to consider what the facts are.

If the videos help force discussion on the subject, all the better.  If the fetus really is a clump of cells and nothing more, then there should be no interest in making abortions safe and rare, as Mr. and Mrs. Clinton along with PP have urged.  No justification would even be necessary.  If the fetus is living (it is), and it's a living something (it's DNA is human), then no justification for abortion would be adequate.

Facts can change minds.  They changed mine, once I saw what abortion really was.


Well, there's a lot to unpack here, so I'll try to keep it short.

I think it's pretty clear that PP isn't profiting off of the tissue donations. Unless you think the black market rate for fetal organs is $30-100.

I don't think anyone is unclear about what abortion is. Ending a pregnancy ends the life of the fetus. I think you're assuming that pro-choice people are pro-choice out of ignorance.

I think the justification for abortion is this, women have the legal right to control their own medical decisions, including if and when they want to have a baby. The life of the fetus is secondary to the life of the mother.

But, like I said in my first post, no one's mind is being changed by anything you or I type. Or by the videos. Nothing on those videos is surprising or illegal.


8/24/2015 4:35 PM
Posted by bronxcheer on 8/24/2015 4:16:00 PM (view original):
WE NEED MORE ABORTIONS
AGREED!!!!!!
8/24/2015 4:39 PM
Well, there's a lot to unpack here, so I'll try to keep it short.

You kept it too short....so short in fact that you don't make much sense.

I think it's pretty clear that PP isn't profiting off of the tissue donations. Unless you think the black market rate for fetal organs is $30-100.

Please tell us how it is "pretty clear" that they are not profiting.  I've been around business as a profit venture for a very long time.  Not sure how you can draw that conclusion.  Is it based on what they say?   I don't know what the black market rate is for the harvested organs of people are, but there would be zero motivation to do so if all it was for is to cover the cost of harvesting them alone.

I don't think anyone is unclear about what abortion is. Ending a pregnancy ends the life of the fetus. I think you're assuming that pro-choice people are pro-choice out of ignorance.

Not all of them are, but listen to the various arguments.  Go to NARAL and read some of their positions on life.  I'd link you, but my virus protector helped me avoid a little something.  I have personally talked one on one to at least 50 to pro-choice people and not one single one of them is willing to acknowledge that abortion results in the death of a living organism or even a human one.

I think the justification for abortion is this, women have the legal right to control their own medical decisions, including if and when they want to have a baby. The life of the fetus is secondary to the life of the mother.

We agree on this....sort of.  What the fetus is matters.  Do women have the right to control their own medical decisions?  Of course.  Abortion doesn't does not qualify as their own decision - there is another human involved.  Do woman control if and when they want to have a baby?  Yes.  There is a specific act that causes pregnancy to occur.  It's how we're made.  When the decision is made to engage in the act, there is a potential consequence.  Killing the consequence is morally repugnant.  Is the life of the fetus secondary to the life of the mother?  You won't get much argument from me on that.  You might also be surprised at the number of women who when given the actual choice of their life versus their baby's, they'll choose the baby's life to be saved.  In a situation where carrying the pregnancy to term results in the death of both, certainly you save the mother if you can.  I have no issue with that.

But, like I said in my first post, no one's mind is being changed by anything you or I type. You have absolutely no way of knowing this.  Or by the videos. Or this.  Nothing on those videos is surprising or illegal.  It's not surprising to you or me, but it is hugely surprising to those who've not been informed about what really happens during abortions.  Do you honestly think it's legal to engage in trafficking of human organs from dead babies?
8/24/2015 7:12 PM
It's perfectly legal to donate fetal tissue and be reimbursed for your expenses.

I'm not going to argue abortion with you. Abortion is legal. The best way to reduce abortions is to expand access to birth control and to make sure people get a factually sound and realistic sex education in their early teens.
8/24/2015 9:09 PM
We agree on this....sort of.  What the fetus is matters.  Do women have the right to control their own medical decisions?  Of course.  Abortion doesn't does not qualify as their own decision - there is another human involved.  Do woman control if and when they want to have a baby?  Yes.  There is a specific act that causes pregnancy to occur.  It's how we're made.  When the decision is made to engage in the act, there is a potential consequence.  Killing the consequence is morally repugnant.  Is the life of the fetus secondary to the life of the mother?  You won't get much argument from me on that.  You might also be surprised at the number of women who when given the actual choice of their life versus their baby's, they'll choose the baby's life to be saved.  In a situation where carrying the pregnancy to term results in the death of both, certainly you save the mother if you can.  I have no issue with that.

What difference does it make if the mother is making the decision for the fetus?  Parents have final say on their children's medical procedures until they reach the age of 18 or are emancipated.  Legally speaking, this is a non-factor.  Morally speaking, it's a grey area, but first-trimester fetuses do not have the brain development to attain consciousness, and they are not viable without the mother's support, so one could certainly argue that they have no particular objections.

8/25/2015 4:33 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2015 9:09:00 PM (view original):
It's perfectly legal to donate fetal tissue and be reimbursed for your expenses.

I'm not going to argue abortion with you. Abortion is legal. The best way to reduce abortions is to expand access to birth control and to make sure people get a factually sound and realistic sex education in their early teens.
Why would you want to reduce abortions?  Why do you think it's so important for PP to provide as many as possible?  Especially if it's only "3%" of their services?
8/25/2015 6:26 AM
Posted by dahsdebater on 8/25/2015 4:33:00 AM (view original):
We agree on this....sort of.  What the fetus is matters.  Do women have the right to control their own medical decisions?  Of course.  Abortion doesn't does not qualify as their own decision - there is another human involved.  Do woman control if and when they want to have a baby?  Yes.  There is a specific act that causes pregnancy to occur.  It's how we're made.  When the decision is made to engage in the act, there is a potential consequence.  Killing the consequence is morally repugnant.  Is the life of the fetus secondary to the life of the mother?  You won't get much argument from me on that.  You might also be surprised at the number of women who when given the actual choice of their life versus their baby's, they'll choose the baby's life to be saved.  In a situation where carrying the pregnancy to term results in the death of both, certainly you save the mother if you can.  I have no issue with that.

What difference does it make if the mother is making the decision for the fetus?  Parents have final say on their children's medical procedures until they reach the age of 18 or are emancipated.  Legally speaking, this is a non-factor.  Morally speaking, it's a grey area, but first-trimester fetuses do not have the brain development to attain consciousness, and they are not viable without the mother's support, so one could certainly argue that they have no particular objections.

The difference is that if I made the decision to kill any of my children by using their doctor, I would rightly be tried for murder.  Legally it's a non-factor because, as in Dred Scott and other cases, the court got it wrong.  Like the nazis got it wrong with their treatment of Jews.  It was legal in their society, but it needed to be stopped.

A first-trimester fetus is a human.  Whether they object or are capable of objecting is immaterial.  Their lack of ability doesn't change what kind of a living being they are.  There are plenty of human beings who do not possess the ability to object to their treatment - including babies outside of the womb.  We are not allowed to kill them.  We are allowed to kill them only based on where they live.  Brain development does not change the kind of living being it is.  After conception there is no biological change whatsoever to what kind of being a fetus is.  Only growth.

Besides it's not whether or not they are capable of objecting, it's whether or not they possess human rights.  If they are human beings, they deserve to be protected as human beings.  It's by virtue of being human (and nothing else) that you have your rights.
8/25/2015 6:39 AM
Posted by silentpadna on 8/25/2015 6:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2015 9:09:00 PM (view original):
It's perfectly legal to donate fetal tissue and be reimbursed for your expenses.

I'm not going to argue abortion with you. Abortion is legal. The best way to reduce abortions is to expand access to birth control and to make sure people get a factually sound and realistic sex education in their early teens.
Why would you want to reduce abortions?  Why do you think it's so important for PP to provide as many as possible?  Especially if it's only "3%" of their services?
Everyone wants to reduce unwanted pregnancies. The best way to do that is to expand access to birth control and to make sure people get a factually sound and realistic sex education in their early teens.
8/25/2015 8:57 AM
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