Posted by cmac4567 on 8/26/2015 10:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shawnfucious on 8/26/2015 6:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by milwood on 8/25/2015 7:59:00 PM (view original):
Communication 101: the sender puts out a message and the receiver is the one that gets to interpret and put meaning to that message. It is up to the sender to clarify the position when it goes widely misunderstood. As the sender you did a very poor job communicating your point.

I'm not going to spend the time to go back through this thread but at one point you said it was okay to take a quick personal phone call. Not just the emergency one but the quick, yet seldom call. By your own definition you have not given 100% 100% of the time.

It is not up to the sender to anticipate every possible misinterpretation of all possible receivers. It is up to the receiver to clarify any position they aren't sure of before making a response based upon that position.

Taking personal phone calls when necessary often helps one work more productively. This renders your attempt to argue in this direction moot at best.

Taking a personal phone call is in FACT sealing as your getting paid for the time. We can argue this all day no different than you saying using the internet is stealing. You say your allowed well others have said they are allowed to use the internet.
You say taking a personal phone call helps one work more productive (except for while on the call because your not working with 100% of your attention on work) well others feel the same amount of time on the computer not work related does the same.

Another fact is you started this in one of your first post with "i don't see why people play games at work" first assuming they was in fact playing during working hrs. Then when someone said something about break time you started this "that's stealing if you don't have permission"
Well I don't see why you would have to take a personal phone call at work unless it an emergency to me that's stealing

And is A FACT my opinion.

Taking a personal phone call is only stealing if you do not have permission from those in authority to take said phone call.  This relies on the basic fundamental principal that if you have permission to take something - in this case, time for a phone call - then it cannot be stealing.

Using a computer to play a game does not make one more productive at work. Taking a personal phone call, particular in emergency circumstances, often does. Your comparison of the two doesn't function.

I never made any assumptions. I simply stated my position on the matter. Apparently you assumed I meant only during working hours.

Yes, it is stealing if you do not have permission. We've been over that several times.

You may not see it as worthwhile for people to take personal phone calls at work except in an emergency. That is your opinion, and you have the right to have that opinion.

However, opinion and fact are two different things.  Your last statement isn't clear on that.

Posted by colonels19 on 8/26/2015 10:23:00 PM (view original):
This whole thread is foolish, Shawn...foolish.

BTW, what was your favorite brand of vodka again?....

While I may believe some of the statements made are foolish, I still remain respectful at all times.

I disagree with the idea the whole thread is foolish. It has several points being made quite clearly, and that's never a foolish thing.

Posted by shawnfucious on 8/27/2015 9:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by fd343ny on 8/26/2015 8:45:00 PM (view original):
You have stated that, but your positions reflect absolutes and, where there have been reasons for your positions and not merely conclusions, they have been based on analytic absolutes or on your assertions of moral conclusions.  

in my opinion, you work in a world of absolutes.  I am just stating a fact - that is my opinion.

My positions reflect the facts.

I'm glad you have an opinion. You're entitled to it. Your opinion is not supported by the facts at hand, but you are certainly free to have it.

I will disagree with the idea that I work in a world of absolutes, precisely because I know its not the case.

lulz, shawn's echo chamber is as impenetrable as I thought....you know its a bad sign when not even satire can get through.

Posted by shawnfucious on 8/12/2015 8:08:00 PM (view original):
No offense to anyone, but I don't understand why so many people feel it necessary to play games (any games, not just WIS) while at work. 

I'm an incredibly busy person myself, working far more than a normal work week. I could log on at work because we do not have any such monitoring or blocking software and no one would care - but I don't, because to be honest I have too much work to do.  Evidently not everyone's schedule is so busy, but even if I wasn't so swamped all the time, I still wouldn't play games at work, because  while I enjoy the games and like having fun as much as anyone, my background is that work is time to be productive, not play games. Again, no offense to anyone else.

So please forgive me if I am not overly sympathetic to this situation, but if I had that much free time to play WIS at work, I'd be asking my employer for a raise since I would be so productive as to get my work done and have that much time left over.

lets go back to the first comment by shawn in this thread - search for facts - 

shawn works

shawn is incredibly busy

shawn could log in at work

shawn would ask for a raise if he had time to play games

then there are opinions

work is time to be productive, not play games

the opinion is not supported by the facts.  It is just an opinion.  Fine to have an opinion.  Doesnt make it a fact.  Maybe there are facts in other shawn posts - but I dont recall any that support, establish, his opinions about what is right and what is wrong.   The opinions are just opinions - calling them facts doesnt make them facts

Posted by metsmax on 8/26/2015 10:55:00 PM (view original):
A different take - I dont think employees need permission to make personal calls.  I think one does not give up one's basic rights when one becomes an employee.  Serfdom went out some centuries ago.

Unless something is prohibited - and unless that prohibition is reasonable - workers have the right to do it.  They dont need permission to talk to other workers, they dont need permission to make reasonable personal phone calls, etc.  A worker who seeks to organize his fellow workers to object to rules imposed by the boss has a right to do so, subject to some legal limitations.

The workplace is not - despite the assumptions that others appear to make - an environment in which all power belongs to the boss and workers have the right to do only what they have permission to do.  Once upon a time, but no more.

The right to use workplace internet connections is interesting.  What if an employee is required to remain at his or her station on a computer for long periods.  Does the invention of the internet as a means of communication make sending a personal message different from making a phone call on a phone that belongs to the employer?  What if the office maintains a wifi connection - can an employee use his own smartphone through that wifi?  What rights does a worker have without permission as technology changes the work environment?

There was a time when the permission of the boss was the essence of workplace relations.  That time was long ago.

Not being allowed to take personal phone calls while doing your job does not  make one a serf.

You do not have an inherent "right" to make phone calls whenever you wish on a job. Depending upon the job and what you are doing at any given moment, it may not be prudent or even safe to take a phone call (personal or not).

Beyond that, if you agree to work for an employer and one of their rules is a simple concept such as no personal phone calls, that hardly seems like a point of serious contention. It's simply not that big of a deal considering all the other things you might want to fight for in a workplace if you must - and if it is a big deal, you can always quit and take a different job.

If you don't have permission to do something, you don't have permission. It's not just automatically permitted because you want to do it. You're on the job or in the workplace, not at a social gathering or in your own home.

You absolutely DO need permission to talk to other workers at times when doing so takes away from the job. Same thing for personal phone calls. If you have permission, fine, if not, you shouldn't do it.

When a boss is easily approachable and treats workers with continuous respect, the boss usually gets respect in return.  When employees get big raises and more than the average vacation and a host of perks they enjoy, they are very grateful then too.  When all of  that happens and the boss asks for certain things, like 100 percent effort all the time, or that no one use computers for personal things, it's funny...they all do it without complaint.

Maybe at workplaces where bosses aren't respectful and/or the pay is low and/or the perks aren't good or don't exist, that kind of thing happens. When people love their jobs, they work hard and listen to respectful bosses.

The "right" to use workplace internet connections doesn't exist.

Your last statement once again demonstrates a part of what is wrong with America.

We'll add deliberate insubordination to the list of things we've discussed in this thread which show why America is in a state of decline. That list already includes lack of work ethic, stubborn insistence one is correct when the facts show otherwise, and intentional obstinance.

Posted by emy1013 on 8/26/2015 11:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shawnfucious on 8/26/2015 6:29:00 AM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 8/25/2015 3:56:00 PM (view original):
Really, the thought that someone can give 100% effort for every second of every work day is beyond ludicrous.  Nobody, nobody is that robotic.

Your first statement has already been proven wrong, not only by myself but by another poster as well.

Also, working to capacity isn't robotic, and your attempt to classify it as such is an attempt to strawman the discussion.

Just because you "say" something does not make it "proof" Shawn.  You have yet to offer verifiable "proof" that it is possible for any person to work at 100% effort (or capacity, if you want to change your terms) other than your own anecdotal evidence and the statement of another anonymous internet user.  You are the one that made the statement that you work to 100% capacity every second of every work day and that it is indeed, very realistic and possible.  Please show us all some verifiable peer reviewed research that shows that ANY human being is possible of achieving this in a 40 hour minimum work week.  You know, REAL proof.  Don't worry, we won't wait.....since you can't.

Your statement was proven wrong when I said I do give 100 percent effort at all times - a statement which was, in fact, made before you even made your statement. In effect, you should have already been aware the statement you were making was incorrect.

It was verified as incorrect not only when I repeated the fact I give 100 percent at all times, but when another poster also said they do so.

That's as much proof as you're going to get on an internet message board.

The conclusion has been established. To refuse to accept it is just stubborn denial on your part.

Your requests for absurd levels of evidence are therefore denied.

Posted by fd343ny on 8/27/2015 9:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shawnfucious on 8/12/2015 8:08:00 PM (view original):
No offense to anyone, but I don't understand why so many people feel it necessary to play games (any games, not just WIS) while at work. 

I'm an incredibly busy person myself, working far more than a normal work week. I could log on at work because we do not have any such monitoring or blocking software and no one would care - but I don't, because to be honest I have too much work to do.  Evidently not everyone's schedule is so busy, but even if I wasn't so swamped all the time, I still wouldn't play games at work, because  while I enjoy the games and like having fun as much as anyone, my background is that work is time to be productive, not play games. Again, no offense to anyone else.

So please forgive me if I am not overly sympathetic to this situation, but if I had that much free time to play WIS at work, I'd be asking my employer for a raise since I would be so productive as to get my work done and have that much time left over.

lets go back to the first comment by shawn in this thread - search for facts - 

shawn works

shawn is incredibly busy

shawn could log in at work

shawn would ask for a raise if he had time to play games

then there are opinions

work is time to be productive, not play games

the opinion is not supported by the facts.  It is just an opinion.  Fine to have an opinion.  Doesnt make it a fact.  Maybe there are facts in other shawn posts - but I dont recall any that support, establish, his opinions about what is right and what is wrong.   The opinions are just opinions - calling them facts doesnt make them facts

Unless your job is to play games, playing games is not work. That's a fact.

Therefore, work is time to be productive, not play games. Logical conclusion based upon above fact.

Sorry, no

It is your opinion that work should exclude those other activities.  It is your opinion that playing games - or knitting - or personal calls - in the absence of specific permission is immoral at work.  

Playing games is not work, but why does that mean that playing games or knitting or personal calls in moderation - even without specific permission - is not proper during work hours?  

You are assuming your conclusion - you are not supporting your conclusion with facts.  Assume the result and you get the result that you assume.

shawn - you really mean to claim that you give 100% all the time?  you are perfect?  let he who is without sin.....oops, lets not go there

100% capacity utilization is very hard for a machine, let alone a person.  Now maybe when you say 100% you mean that you do the best that you can, subject to the downtime and inefficiency that you cannot avoid.  Is that 100%?  might someone say that he can be more productive with breaks?  Does one need to ask the boss for permission to work in that way?  in every workplace?

the claim of 100% undermines the credibility of any facts you offer.

its this - "shawn would ask for a raise if he had time to play games" - that sounds so god damn arrogant and condescending. and this - "work is time to be productive, not play games", when said to folks whose situation you know nothing about, who may be doing nothing wrong. im not arguing with you - you've given me the concessions i pushed for in our disagreements (even though you disagree with the effect it has on your argument as a whole, you did agree its possible people could play HD at work on break and be completely in the clear, which is the point i was making).

im just sharing this fact, because i dont think you are as of yet aware of it - its those kinds of statements that give others the opinion that you are pompous and condescending. whether our opinion is right or not depends on you, im not saying you do think you are better than everyone, only you know that. but also its fairly well established that in a major way, perception is reality - so if everyone thinks you are being condescending when you say those things, then for practical purposes, you are. as a boss, this should be familiar territory to you - if you employees think you are being hard on them for no reason, even if you aren't, its still an issue that you have to address. its really no different, perception is reality in the eyes of the perceiver. all bosses, and really, all people, should care about how they are perceived, if they want to be effective in this world. if you are perceived negatively, on a universal basis... that is a real issue, regardless of your intentions.

Posted by fd343ny on 8/27/2015 9:54:00 PM (view original):
Sorry, no

It is your opinion that work should exclude those other activities.  It is your opinion that playing games - or knitting - or personal calls - in the absence of specific permission is immoral at work.  

Playing games is not work, but why does that mean that playing games or knitting or personal calls in moderation - even without specific permission - is not proper during work hours?  

You are assuming your conclusion - you are not supporting your conclusion with facts.  Assume the result and you get the result that you assume.

If your job doesn't include playing games as part of the work, then work by definition excludes the playing of games. That's a FACT, not anyone's opinion.

If you honestly can't tell the difference between fact and opinion, there is no point in you even trying to argue anything further.

Work is what is proper during work hours, unless you receive specific permission to do something else from someone in authority.

I am assuming nothing. Your contention I make assumptions is based upon your own inability to tell facts from opinions.

Posted by fd343ny on 8/27/2015 9:57:00 PM (view original):
shawn - you really mean to claim that you give 100% all the time?  you are perfect?  let he who is without sin.....oops, lets not go there

100% capacity utilization is very hard for a machine, let alone a person.  Now maybe when you say 100% you mean that you do the best that you can, subject to the downtime and inefficiency that you cannot avoid.  Is that 100%?  might someone say that he can be more productive with breaks?  Does one need to ask the boss for permission to work in that way?  in every workplace?

the claim of 100% undermines the credibility of any facts you offer.

Giving 100 percent of the effort you have at any given time does not equal perfection. Please do not try to claim I said something I did not say.

Obviously many factors affect what a human being can do at any given time. The point is that you give all of the effort you have while dealing with and in spite of the factors of life.

I have already discussed the idea of breaks.

Facts are facts regardless of any claims I make.

Beyond that, my claims of 100 percent stand as is and have no ability to undermine anything. 

Just because you apparently don't understand doesn't somehow mean there is a problem with what I've said.

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/28/2015 1:45:00 AM (view original):
its this - "shawn would ask for a raise if he had time to play games" - that sounds so god damn arrogant and condescending. and this - "work is time to be productive, not play games", when said to folks whose situation you know nothing about, who may be doing nothing wrong. im not arguing with you - you've given me the concessions i pushed for in our disagreements (even though you disagree with the effect it has on your argument as a whole, you did agree its possible people could play HD at work on break and be completely in the clear, which is the point i was making).

im just sharing this fact, because i dont think you are as of yet aware of it - its those kinds of statements that give others the opinion that you are pompous and condescending. whether our opinion is right or not depends on you, im not saying you do think you are better than everyone, only you know that. but also its fairly well established that in a major way, perception is reality - so if everyone thinks you are being condescending when you say those things, then for practical purposes, you are. as a boss, this should be familiar territory to you - if you employees think you are being hard on them for no reason, even if you aren't, its still an issue that you have to address. its really no different, perception is reality in the eyes of the perceiver. all bosses, and really, all people, should care about how they are perceived, if they want to be effective in this world. if you are perceived negatively, on a universal basis... that is a real issue, regardless of your intentions.

You are adding in the supposed arrogance and condescending on your own. I've already told you that and explained how neither of those is actually present in that or any of my statements.  Please stop stubbornly insisting I said something I clearly did not.

I need not know everyone's specific situation in order to make those statements.  I stated clearly when I believe playing games at work is fine and when it is wrong. I stand by those statements.

I never gave any concessions, as doing so was never necessary. My position has never changed, and nothing you've said has had any effect on my argument as a whole.

Those who think I'm "pompous and condescending" shouldn't be so quick to assume something that isn't there. They should learn how to read something for what it is rather than jumping to ridiculous conclusions. It would solve a lot of problems.

If everyone wants to think I'm a giant giraffe with internet access, I don't care - it doesn't make it true. Perception is only reality when the perception is based upon facts and not ridiculous concjecture from the overly sensitive to whom everything said must be taken in the most offensive way possible.

My employees have clear communication with me, which eliminates issues like the one you describe. Funny, none of them jump to ridiculous conclusions based on nothing but conjecture. I don't keep people around if they are always offended because of their own assumptions and conjecture, mostly because no one wants to deal with that kind of drama in the workplace.

Posted by shawnfucious on 8/28/2015 7:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by fd343ny on 8/27/2015 9:57:00 PM (view original):
shawn - you really mean to claim that you give 100% all the time?  you are perfect?  let he who is without sin.....oops, lets not go there

100% capacity utilization is very hard for a machine, let alone a person.  Now maybe when you say 100% you mean that you do the best that you can, subject to the downtime and inefficiency that you cannot avoid.  Is that 100%?  might someone say that he can be more productive with breaks?  Does one need to ask the boss for permission to work in that way?  in every workplace?

the claim of 100% undermines the credibility of any facts you offer.

Giving 100 percent of the effort you have at any given time does not equal perfection. Please do not try to claim I said something I did not say.

Obviously many factors affect what a human being can do at any given time. The point is that you give all of the effort you have while dealing with and in spite of the factors of life.

I have already discussed the idea of breaks.

Facts are facts regardless of any claims I make.

Beyond that, my claims of 100 percent stand as is and have no ability to undermine anything. 

Just because you apparently don't understand doesn't somehow mean there is a problem with what I've said.

all humans have flaws.  No one gives 100% effort. The claim is not credible.

Posted by shawnfucious on 8/27/2015 9:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by metsmax on 8/26/2015 10:55:00 PM (view original):
A different take - I dont think employees need permission to make personal calls.  I think one does not give up one's basic rights when one becomes an employee.  Serfdom went out some centuries ago.

Unless something is prohibited - and unless that prohibition is reasonable - workers have the right to do it.  They dont need permission to talk to other workers, they dont need permission to make reasonable personal phone calls, etc.  A worker who seeks to organize his fellow workers to object to rules imposed by the boss has a right to do so, subject to some legal limitations.

The workplace is not - despite the assumptions that others appear to make - an environment in which all power belongs to the boss and workers have the right to do only what they have permission to do.  Once upon a time, but no more.

The right to use workplace internet connections is interesting.  What if an employee is required to remain at his or her station on a computer for long periods.  Does the invention of the internet as a means of communication make sending a personal message different from making a phone call on a phone that belongs to the employer?  What if the office maintains a wifi connection - can an employee use his own smartphone through that wifi?  What rights does a worker have without permission as technology changes the work environment?

There was a time when the permission of the boss was the essence of workplace relations.  That time was long ago.

Not being allowed to take personal phone calls while doing your job does not  make one a serf.

You do not have an inherent "right" to make phone calls whenever you wish on a job. Depending upon the job and what you are doing at any given moment, it may not be prudent or even safe to take a phone call (personal or not).

Beyond that, if you agree to work for an employer and one of their rules is a simple concept such as no personal phone calls, that hardly seems like a point of serious contention. It's simply not that big of a deal considering all the other things you might want to fight for in a workplace if you must - and if it is a big deal, you can always quit and take a different job.

If you don't have permission to do something, you don't have permission. It's not just automatically permitted because you want to do it. You're on the job or in the workplace, not at a social gathering or in your own home.

You absolutely DO need permission to talk to other workers at times when doing so takes away from the job. Same thing for personal phone calls. If you have permission, fine, if not, you shouldn't do it.

When a boss is easily approachable and treats workers with continuous respect, the boss usually gets respect in return.  When employees get big raises and more than the average vacation and a host of perks they enjoy, they are very grateful then too.  When all of  that happens and the boss asks for certain things, like 100 percent effort all the time, or that no one use computers for personal things, it's funny...they all do it without complaint.

Maybe at workplaces where bosses aren't respectful and/or the pay is low and/or the perks aren't good or don't exist, that kind of thing happens. When people love their jobs, they work hard and listen to respectful bosses.

The "right" to use workplace internet connections doesn't exist.

Your last statement once again demonstrates a part of what is wrong with America.

We'll add deliberate insubordination to the list of things we've discussed in this thread which show why America is in a state of decline. That list already includes lack of work ethic, stubborn insistence one is correct when the facts show otherwise, and intentional obstinance.

You miss the point.  As shawn would say, if you didnt understand it you should have asked.  "Serf" is an analogy.

Your expressed view of the workplace is that activity occurs only by permission of the employer.

My point is that in the modern workplace employees have rights and entitlements apart from what gets specific permission - consistent with the reasonable needs of the workplace.  It is not a one way street.

You assert that employees lack various rights - that is your opinion.  For example, workers have the right, as a matter of law, to try to organize the workplace and to discuss with other employees the idea of joining a union.  They have the right to post notices about union meetings - they dont need permission.  In the absence of safety or security concerns, I am confident that a court would hold that employees have the right to make a reasonable amount of personal phone calls during the workday - with or without permission.  Keep in mind that in many workplaces the phones work over internet connections - so a phone call IS a use of the workplace internet connection.  (thats a fact, sorry)  Someday, as internet based communications become more universal, I bet that a right to reasonable internet communications will be recognized. 

Your assertions that employees can only do what they have permission to do are not facts.  They are opinions.  They are antiquated, obsolete opinions that run counter to the rights of workers and seek to enshrine the power of employers - approachable bosses and bosses who are jerks.

Stating an opinion does not make it a fact.

 Both by statute and by court decisions the rights of workers to decent conditions, to unionize and otherwise to exercise their liberty except where it unreasonaly interferes in work performance have been recognized and should be recognized.

You can imagine that the workplace is governed by the permission of the boss - under the law and as a matter of wise conduct by employers you would be mistaken.